DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!! - (PART 2)

[Ergin Ozturk]

I asked Roger Deakins, in the midst of a similar discussion, which shots in Skyfall were used with Epic on the octocopter by the second unit during the chase scenes in Istanbul, vs the other footage shot on Alexa. His reply:
"There were probably just two shots of Bond on the rooftop in Istanbul which were made with the Red and used in 'Skyfall'. They are quick shots and you would never notice the difference. I have done side by side tests on a portrait, however, and that is where you really see the subtle differences in colour representation, differences that cannot be counteracted in a DI suite."
I think there were actually more than just two shots from the octo and Epic, but point taken. More dense though smaller photo sites benefits resolution. Larger photo sites benefit variation in color sensitivity at the cost of resolution. I hope Dragon turns this model on its ear.

+1.
color seperation. main issue. and creating a skin tone is just a part of it.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Talk about the deleterious effects of poor CRI lighting sources, try shooting the BMCC with them.

My point would be, that the more accurate the capturing device, then the more one notices the color shifts causes by the lighting source. Color temperature and tint are excellent ways to compensate for the impact of lighting type, but since they are global adjustments they cannot precisely track vagaries throughout the spectrum.

Very excited by the move to remote phosphor lighting technology that appears to offer both high efficiency and high CRI (color rendering index).

Cheers - #19

Great post. This needs to be taken note of by every one using Modern high resolution high bit depth cameras. I would suggest much of the criticism of late comes down to not so good lighting sources. With the less expensive cameras on the market being more widely available Id suggest that less good lighting instruments may being used and we are now seeing images with created with not so good colour, Skin tones may be one aspect of it.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Great post. This needs to be taken note of by every one using Modern high resolution high bit depth cameras. I would suggest much of the criticism of late comes down to not so good lighting sources. With the less expensive cameras on the market being more widely available Id suggest that less good lighting instruments may being used and we are now seeing images with created with not so good colour, Skin tones may be one aspect of it.

This is true and more crap cinematography in general on endless obscure productions. But how fast colors get thrown off, and exactly how and why they get thrown off, and how easy they are to correct, varies from camera to camera. None are really absolutely perfect, but some are a little easier to get good-looking results from in practice.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

HAH! Rob got nothin' on me! I scored a perfect zero on the test. Yes, this is where zero is the perfect score.


EDIT: Copied and pasted my results.

Based on your information, below is how your score compares to those of others with similar demographic information.

Your score: 0
Gender: Male
Age range: 60-69
Best score for your gender and age range: 0
Highest score for your gender and age range: 1970

0 ( Perfect Color Acuity )
99 ( Low Color Acuity )

That's the same result I got - but there exist other, longer tests as well. I wasn't claiming you were deficient in your ability to see color - I didn't comment on my assessment of that ability at all. You were speculating that maybe I was remember? Plus, this measured ability is not the same as developing an eye for what "feels' right (again, I am not commenting on your ability here)

It seems on this forum those who do not mindless agree that everything Red is always wonderful all the time just get bashed. Not a very stimulating intellectual milieu, is it, where only one point of view is tolerated. Not my cup of tea, I must say.

 

[Adam Eden]

Some people around here need a hug.

Hugs!

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Great post. This needs to be taken note of by every one using Modern high resolution high bit depth cameras. I would suggest much of the criticism of late comes down to not so good lighting sources. With the less expensive cameras on the market being more widely available Id suggest that less good lighting instruments may being used and we are now seeing images with created with not so good colour, Skin tones may be one aspect of it.

Yes!

Skintones are effected by:

1. Quality of light, e.g. soft-box vs. direct fennel vs. Briese vs. Kinoflo vs. good old sun, etc...

2. Colour temperature

3. Tint. Older HMI lights tend to become greenish, LED lights tend to be magenta, bluish, horrible

4. Make-Up.

Of course different sensors react differently, and, of course, the colour science behind them renders skin tones differently. However, the above mentioned factors influence the resulting look of the skin much more than the sensor and colour science of a camera.

But I agree with the folks that prefer one camera over another due to the fact that in their own workflow a particular sensor/colour sciences fits better than other. I for my part like CameraRGB and RedSpace more than RedColor3 for instance. RedColour1 seems to be somehow over-saturated, RedColor2 has a weak red-channel and hence leads to funky results.

Developing colour sciences is not only affected by the aim to strive for the most realistic colours but also by fashion and taste. Personally I expect Dragon's colour science generally less saturated/vibrant than RedColour3 but delivering more colour in means of depth and "pronunciation" with a clear emphasis on pleasant skin tones.

One remark to Mark's work: Interesting and promising, in many ways mouth-watering! But why not RedLogFilm encoded pictures? Since log encoded is the production path for most of us. Grading always kills information, also "basic" grading or a "basic" Rec709 curve. Would have opened a few more cans of worms probably...


Hans

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Look,

Pantone has identified over 100 skin tones. No one can get it right, "out of the box".

http://www.designboom.com/art/pantone-skintone-guide/
http://www.pantone.com/pages/pantone.aspx?pg=21046


The best thing a camera can do is reproduce the spectrum of color accurately. If Mark is telling us he looks at his daughters face and skin every day, then he takes a shot of her on the Dragon and tells us that the shot exactly represents her skin, then that is good enough for me.

Mark has also stated that he has filmed a wide variety of people and races over his career. I trust him on this one.

It means the color reproduction is accurate. That is what is most important. Fix the rest with make up or secondaries to get what you need, but it's pointless to blame the color science or to say a camera does it bad.

David

Try this one. Next time you are at a dinner party with a bunch of friends, look at each person carefully and notice the subtly of each one's skin tone. You will find they are no where near alike.

Had I had time, I would have elaborated further. I alos did not want to say something too resonating and critical about Epic, but all you fanboys forced my hand.

I mean after a feature shoot you get to know the color of the actors skin very well. I mean color vs what I see in front of my eyes. White balanced off a grey card placed exactly where the actor will perform, I compare Alexa to Red, and Red needs a grade beyond white balancing for colors to match, and Alexa des not. Alexa will also frequently hold saturation higher within skin tones that the Epic will. Yes I can crank saturation up, but unless I do that only for skin tones the rest of the image will look over-saturated.

It's not a huge difference, i's very subtle. Sometimes isn't even perceptible, but sometimes it is. Doing this grade is a matter of a few minutes per shot, not hours, but I'd rather not have to do it.

The biggest skin problem with Red is freckles. They show up way too much (meaning they do not match reality) all the time and fixing that is more tricky. By the same token, tanned actors seem to look more tan (an actor that is somewhat more tanned than someone sitting next to them will look, say, more than just that somewhat more) - maybe this is due to the same phenomenon. Pale (untanned caucasian) skin looks paler than it should, freckles and tan and darker skin look more freckled and dark than it does in reality. Olive skin will look too olive (actually often will look a bit yellow).

I'm not trying to spread FUD here. These are all super subtle differences from what most DPs and colorists I talk to would ideally prefer, a bit better in Epic than it was on Red One MX. Hopefully with Dragon the problem will just be gone. Super subtle and not the end of the world, even if you don't grade the problem out.

Of course, also, RAW gives you lost and lots of room to fix things.

All cameras apply a color LUT to reality. None are 100% exact/linear and match our eyes, neither perceptually nor technically. Sony used to be famous for their red-push, and I think it was Ikegami that always pushed green (before my time, I read about this, although the Sony red-push continued, to a lesser and very subtle extent, into the EX1, which we do own, and I seem to notice it in the F3 as well).

Now you can all be mindless fanboys and say that there is no room for improvement in Red's color fidelity. The thing is I am not writing anything here that the business as a whole does not agree with as a fairly wide-spread consensus. Sure, there are some Arri fanboys too, who spread all kinds of FUD, but most DPs and producers just coldly evaluate what the best tool will be for a given job. They are brand agnostic, and what I say here has been a frequent conclusion.

They'll shoot Epic anyway, for a bunch of other reasons (including malleability for grading, resolution, small size and lower cost) but out-of-the-box (white balance to grey card, ISO and Luma curve only) color fidelity I have never heard of as the number one reason to choose Red over Alexa or F55/F65.

I think Deakins is exaggerating, and I disagree that it can't fairly easily be 100% fixed in DI almost all the time (and the depth of the RAW means you can in fact make color anything you want, for an end result that exceeds the color capabilities of other cameras, but Epic color - not just skin tones, all of it - could be a bit better "out of the box" especially in cases where DI budgets and time for grading are limited.

That, and I would gladly buy "clip-on" low cons to put over the sensor, preferably in a variety of grades. That would be crazy-handy. But the highlight roll-off issue has been a non-issue that we easily handle in many other ways, but that clip on thing would sometimes be even easier and faster. Plus it would open up new creative possibilities, and I always welcome that.

Now all you fanboys can tear me to shreds in my absence, despite the fact that I own several Red cameras, and use them all the time, and even promote their use to other people. I know the only permitted position here is that Red is 100% perfect and wonderful in all ways. I disagree - Nothing is perfect and unless you point out and discuss where improvement has room to occur everything would stagnate. You know, even my wife isn't perfect, but I'm still very glad I married her. Despite these very subtle issues I'm glad I shoot with Red on most projects

That said, I think I've had enough of this forum. Sometimes it reminds me of "right-think" in the book 1984.

 

[Mark Toia]

MY GOD !!!!! Robert... ! Take your skin problems and start your very own thread please.

I've heard enough of your hi and mighty pretentious claims about how amazing your eye is over everyones else's... Take your conversation to a new thread (yours) and then you can carry on all you want.

I don't want this "DRAGON" thread turning ugly and then being turned off again by Mod's (or Jim) all because of one individual !.

Weather you are right or wrong, I don't really care... I turn over millions per year from my work, and I have never every heard anyone complain about skin once... and I'm talking about huge skin care clients that use me who are paranoid about skin !

Please move on..

Thank you.

 

[David Battistella]

Well Rob,

Not sure why you singled me out as a fanboy. If that means a constructive and positive attitude, then I am guilty. I did not post in response to you specifically, but the overall years or RED skintone discussion that has permeated this forum for many years. I don't doubt your qualifications, I take them at face value and I am sure, by your passion on the subject that you have looked at it very carefully in a calibrated setup that you carefully tweaked.

I take no issue with what you have posted here at all and I have not resorted to calling any one individual, anything (whether it's highlights or skin tones).

This is REDuser, so there is a good chance you will get people extolling the virtues of the RED camera, I think that is natural. There are many other people here who do what you do and don't share your opinion or do not feel as passionately as you do about this part of the RED color science.

I just stated that skintone is like looking at the many shades of green in a forrest (if you shoot landscapes) or hues of blue, cyan and green in the ocean (if you shoot water). You see those hues more subtly, I think we all get that, but I don't share the view that it is a problem, nor do i think that RED should tweak their color science to favour skin.

There is not a RED image i have not tweaked in the past six years, that is the point of the raw system. RED does not have to get color balance right "out of the box", because it is not baked in, ARRI does. They push their color palate toward film stocks (which I daresay do not render skin perfectly either) .

I think the RED is far more accurate, so we see more with the increased resolution. What we see from RED is correct, it has not been smoothed over and more tones are being rendered, maybe that is why we see more imperfections. There is so much subjective stuff to this argument, so many factors but the basic thing is this:

Don't now come in here and call us all fanboys, its a great community where we all share a lot of information, there's alot of talented people contributing here. Trying to insult people is not a great way to get your point across or to be noticed or heard.

I hear you. I've understood your point and read about your capacity to do your job well. Do what you need to do to get your images correct according to your standards and if RED's color science does not meet your standards then you should perhaps write Graeme an e-mail or start a thread asking RED to improve their skin tone color accuracy.

It's not fair to Mark to have done this work for the community to have another thread closed because it was derailed.

It's early in the process, we are mostly all happy and grateful that RED has done this much to date and that MArk would take the time to share, if that is what being a Fanboy is then fine, flame away.

David

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Robert Ruffo, what are you, what I’m? Let’s see if I’m a Fan-boy, they you’re a Destroy-boy! If I’m a Fact-boy, you’re a Wait till it comes out boy, but mean while I’ll just Bashed-it-boy. Now I truly belief in given everyone it’s space to say whatever it wants, with courtesy! But you’re a Time after Time-boy! The same thing, different people have different ideas, you cannot change that! It’s like pit bull once it gets its yaws into your person, it won’t let go, and how many times are you going to discuss the same subject over and over! I would not generally take the time to comment, but I just could not have sat down idly while you continue with your well written rant! GIVE IT A REST!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Roy Rossovich]

Mark, Thanks for the tests, looks great, so buttery smooth, you planning on upgrading all your cameras or keep an MX around for old times sake?

 

[Elsie N]

That's the same result I got - but there exist other, longer tests as well. I wasn't claiming you were deficient in your ability to see color - I didn't comment on my assessment of that ability at all. You were speculating that maybe I was remember? Plus, this measured ability is not the same as developing an eye for what "feels' right (again, I am not commenting on your ability here)

It seems on this forum those who do not mindless agree that everything Red is always wonderful all the time just get bashed. Not a very stimulating intellectual milieu, is it, where only one point of view is tolerated. Not my cup of tea, I must say.

Rob, I have no doubt in your ability to parse color in an image. And maybe that is what some of your clients demand and why they choose you for their projects. But I think a lot of the pushback you are getting is because you don't make allowances for other approaches to image making. At least, you haven't voiced that very well if you do.

There are a lot of successful and talented people, and that includes others on the forum than Mark Toia, whom you have (unintentionally, I'm sure) more or less dismissed their professionalism by constantly promoting yours. You call them (us) fanboys while in fact they are professionals who react when their methods are challenged. Consider that you are the one who does not tolerate differing views instead of vice versa, as you stated above.

I'm not trying to tell you how to act. I'm sure you do just fine in many circles. I'm just trying to point out that like when Glen Ford and Henry Fonda walked into that bar full of rodeo bronc busters in the movie "The Rounders" and proclaimed they had a horse no cowboy could ride, all hell is gonna break loose.

Pushback doesn't make you a fanboy... but it can be the result of a need to defend your honor, or skillset or even your choice of a camera.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Robert,
yes, i agree with Mark,
why not open a new thread on skin tone?
it would be very nice of you, and it would be interesting to see all the various differences in tone between Alexa, F65 and Epic and other out of the box.
Same pictures, the same objective and original files to download, so all we realize, and we can play with these.:smilewinkgrin:
I think it's much more constructive to see the actual frames.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

" Only two things are infinite. The universe and human stupidity. And I am not so sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Mark has already said that the short posted was meant to showcase the dynamic range and it was not graded. Why the fight guys? It is really painful to flip through pages to find information.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

I heard the university film majors are now drinking once every time someone says "skin tones" and twice for "fan boy."

 

[Scott Brown]

Never had any issues with skin tone on our Red's.

When comparing Alexa to Epic, a quick look at the number of mega budget Hollywood movies being shot on Red camera's v Alexa speaks volumes. The world's top directors and DOP's are choosing to work with Red because the quality of the footage is superb!

Now, I'm NO fanboy and I have been critical of Red in the past over issues such as poor audio quality, noisy fans etc BUT I have always been knocked out by the quality of the footage we get )

Alexa is a really nice camera and here in the UK it is used on a lot of TV drama's. Mostly down to speed of post production where productions use the ProRes QuickTimes to get straight to work on the edit.

I think we should park the whole skin tone ramble as it is tired and has run out of steam.

I don't doubt for a second that once Dragon is out in the wild that this camera will be crowned as the best digital cinema camera in the world - oh, and also the most affordable :smiley:

Scott

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Uh guys.. In order for Mark's demand that Rob piss off to work, you've really got to stop responding to Rob's posts. You're baiting the hook. :001_tongue:

 

[Martin Stevens]

So..........Mark, can you say at what ISO the Dragon has equal stops above and below middle gray?

 

[Mark Toia]

So..........Mark, can you say at what ISO the Dragon has equal stops above and below middle gray?

Sorry, not qualified enough to answer that one... If I was to guess close... I'm going to say 1000ISO

 

[Martin Stevens]

Sorry, not qualified enough to answer that one... If I was to guess close... I'm going to say 1000ISO

Thanks Mark.

Any chance that you are going to post any more Dragon imagery etc. into this new thread of yours?