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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Heat

Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
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Mike
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DRAGON GETS HOT!!!

Nice shot Mike! Best picture to close that thread!

Pat
 
Bruce Allen said:
You're not guilty. The issue is that:

1. RED's black shading is unintuitive
2. RED didn't release a clear article like Mark's for users to read

If the user error is caused by a design error... the fault lies with the design error. That's Design 101 - which RED's products repeatedly fail.

The biggest cause for that is simply arrogance.

Someone at RED really needs to start thinking from the humble perspective of: "How are we failing our users? Where are they getting tripped up? How can we redesign things and change the way we work to make it easier for users?"

If you read most comments on the forums here, the attitude is completely wrong. If you get a bad result out of a RED product, it's 500% YOUR FAULT and you are a BAD PERSON for saying so publicly. I hope RED isn't picking up their attitude from that!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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Hard not to agree with you, Bruce. We need more people like you. Totally unbiased every single time.
 
Manfred Lopez said:
This image should once and for all settle the "heat issue". I still remember how Jim said the dragon loves heat. Now I see what he meant.
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That's just one incident. For all the people shouting users need to learn how Red works and we should Reducate every people, why couldn't Red make the camera more user friendly or set definite guidelines in the manual?

It's been more than seven years we've had this kind of incidents, don't you think Red might have been too vague for people?

Plenty of people I know who are experienced with Red still ask so many questions every time Red has an update. Why??

Also, I don't know if I'm liking Gunliek in yellow. I hope he will remain cool and not trying to defend Red everytime someone has issues.
 
Nook Kim said:
That's just one incident. For all the people shouting users need to learn how Red works and we should Reducate every people, why couldn't Red make the camera more user friendly or set definite guidelines in the manual?

It's been more than seven years we've had this kind of incidents, don't you think Red might have been too vague for people?

Plenty of people I know who are experienced with Red still ask so many questions every time Red has an update. Why??

Also, I don't know if I'm liking Gunliek in yellow. I hope he will remain cool and not trying to defend Red everytime someone has issues.
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If RED is at fault, I think it is because they offer too many options. In trying to fulfill new user requests for this or that option, they now have firmware that is so complex it is almost impossible for even the most studious to know and understand everything.

On the other hand, RED sets up the cameras via firmware that allows one to shoot the defaults and come out with fantastic imagery.

If the camera isn't getting you the results you desire, look to yourself.
 
Is it so that blackshading and fan control got a tad to complicated on later builds to fly with rental clients. Thats what I think, I mean, I own an epic and use it a lot and I read this forum more than most and try to read manuals and all other info... Still the fan controls and blackshading procedures and warnings are pretty far from crystal clear to me. So for a rental client it must be a nightmare.

When using the Alexa I never heard anyone talk about fans or blackshading...

So to me its quite obvious that the problem in this case is more about the amount of options represented in the epic firmware it for sure brings a lot of benefits but also cause a lot of trouble when people, read experienced DP's, do not understand how to use the camera.

I try not to rent out the camera without making sure that a qualified ac goes with it. The problem is those guys do not really grow on trees. Most ac's are not used with the latest firmware and most struggle to even find the playback menu...
 
His camera was blinking temperature red and shutting down a couple of times for no obvious reasons...

To me the temp readings are not to easy to understand.

When shooting Underwater and using our red volts I had the camera shutting down like that. The diver told me the temperature showed red and then the camera died... it turned out that the camera was actually fine and not to far from a good blackshade but the volts overheated and they shut them selfs off when they do.

To me the graphics for temperature readings and black shading indications are not such a good mix. It takes far to much reading to understand. Maybe the new in camera help will sort it.
Also i think a click on the temperature should take us straight to fan settings and blackshading with a bit of information on the side. If that was in place I think this thread would not exist.

getting the laptop out to read red 101 when shooting a high end car commercial does not fly well same apply when you are deep down in the blue:)

the issue with this little problem is that its so environmental dependent so it does not show on the tech day at the rental house. For most ac's I think a camera that suddenly starts to blink red on set is a nightmare and cause far more stress than needed.
Better to make something like the histogram that shows current temp, blackshade dr with the given exposure.
 
Trent Lillehaugen said:
http://www.red.com/learn/red-101

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/black-shading-calibration
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Thanks for listening. The RED article isn't great.

It is long, yet still fails to explicitly mention all the stuff Mark does - eg that the RED camera itself heats up and is a major factor in this whole thing. And how to make multiple maps ahead of time.

It also doesn't even mention CAL T/E.

It suggests that Black Shading is necessitated mainly by firmware changes, big (eg 1/4 sec) shutter speed changes, or big (15 - 30 degree) AMBIENT temp changes.

RED's guide should start clearly talk about SENSOR temperatures not AMBIENT temperatures.

Also, often you can't stop down to black shade every time the temp changes on a shoot. Well, you can... but then people will say nasty things like "The Epic's gone down, dude. The camera heated itself out of its own sensor range and now we can't shoot for 20 mins. Should have rented an Alexa."

This is a MAJOR reason why RED is perceived as finicky and unreliable.

Mark's solution (creating multiple black shade files for different temperatures ahead of time) is brilliant and needs to be included.

Well, of course the long term solution is to just design a sensor that isn't so sensitive to black shading (how do Arri, Sony, Canon, etc do it?). But Mark's solution is a good guide for now.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Thanks for listening. The RED article isn't great.

It is long, yet still fails to explicitly mention all the stuff Mark does - eg that the RED camera itself heats up and is a major factor in this whole thing. And how to make multiple maps ahead of time.

It also doesn't even mention CAL T/E.

It suggests that Black Shading is necessitated mainly by firmware changes, big (eg 1/4 sec) shutter speed changes, or big (15 - 30 degree) AMBIENT temp changes.

RED's guide should start clearly talk about SENSOR temperatures not AMBIENT temperatures.

Also, often you can't stop down to black shade every time the temp changes on a shoot. Well, you can... but then people will say nasty things like "The Epic's gone down, dude. The camera heated itself out of its own sensor range and now we can't shoot for 20 mins. Should have rented an Alexa."

This is a MAJOR reason why RED is perceived as finicky and unreliable.

Mark's solution (creating multiple black shade files for different temperatures ahead of time) is brilliant and needs to be included.

Well, of course the long term solution is to just design a sensor that isn't so sensitive to black shading (how do Arri, Sony, Canon, etc do it?). But Mark's solution is a good guide for now.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

Bruce, I hope you won't take offense at the question I'm about to ask... (it is asked so I can evaluate how much weight to attach to your posts).

The question is, do you or have you shot using a Dragon camera?
 
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