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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Has More Noise Than MX???

J

Jesse Maxwell

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Hello all,

First time shooting with Dragon and I noticed a LOT of noise when reviewing footage. Everything was shot at 800 ISO with a very decent lighting set up so footage should be crystal clear but it's not. When comparing to MX footage it seems Dragon has waaay more noise. Is it just me? Is there a way around this? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
 
Welcome to reduser.

Can you post a link to some r3d snapshots?

Battistella
 
Yes, this is a known issue with the new calibration of dragon, which is aimed more at highlight protection than low light. Before dragon was released to the public, they used a different calibration and OLPF... but it had some issues (red dots). With the release of user-interchangable OLPFs this should be fixed. Check out the Low Light OLPF.
 
As a rule of thumb, blackshade on location with a Dragon when you reaach operational temperature. Also, DEB and ADD tools in REDCINE-X can help tremendously with any undesired noise. Do you know what OLPF the Dragon you had came with?

There is a LOT of information regarding this subject here in RU so please use the search tool as this topic has been beaten to death.
 
Sounds like you maybe haven't let the cam warm up to calibration temperature.

But if you could share an R3D snap, that would help us look into it.
 
I don't post here often, but I also used the Dragon for a few promotionals for our company and it exhibits heavy noise. Is there a good post software for denoising?
 
Justin Gum said:
I don't post here often, but I also used the Dragon for a few promotionals for our company and it exhibits heavy noise. Is there a good post software for denoising?
Click to expand...

Neatvideo is an excellent tool. You will want to do some tweaking for best results.
 
Thanks for responding guys! I'm not sure which OLPF was used, I will ask my DP.

I've read that Red Cine X debayer helps to reduce noise but it takes a LOOOONG time to render the files. My plan was to edit the r3d files natively in Premiere Pro CC. I know many people render lighter formats and relink the files later but my computer handles r3d files just fine and it's a small project so I wouldn't want to bother. Working natively saves me a lot of render time! So is there some sort of Debayer option in Premiere that I can use while rendering the final sequence? Or some other solutions maybe?

Here's a few stills.. (it's a music video) For now I left color settings at Color Space REDcolor3, Gamma Curve REDgamma3. Both images have not been color graded in any way.



 
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When your camera is running there are two little indicators down in the bottom called "CAL : T/E".

T & E should both be green. They stand for Calibration: Exposure and Temperature. When you blackshade you blackshade at a specific temperature and exposure duration (+/- half a second). When the camera starts up though the temperature "T" will be yellow or red. As it approaches "45" (or whatever you blackshaded to) the T will turn green. If you turn on the exposure check tool you can usually see the purple/noisy region of the image change quite a bit over the first few minutes as the sensor warms.
 
Jesse the reason to post an R3d snapshot is to establish if the problem is caused by underexposure or something else.
If you post an R3d snapshot ( created by clicking the Camera icon with R3d underneath it in the Redcine X viewer window)
then it is very easy to work out if the problem is caused by underexposure.
No doubt you know all this but, on set monitors, particularly when viewed in dark situations can be very misleading for working out exposure, the histogram
and the other in camera exposure tools are the easiest way to get a healthy exposure.
 
I'd like to add that if you are rendering native R3Ds out of Premiere that you want to check the "Use Maximum Render Quality" on the lower right portion of the render panel. This will ensure you are rendering out a Full Debayer of the R3D.
 
I have seen so many DP's that don't understand RED's way of recording an image underexpose severely footage, because they "feel" that the key light is bright and they will close down on the lens 1 or 2 stops, starving the sensor from light. This to me looks like a typical example, but it is conjecture unless you know the exact settings the camera and lens had for these particular shots...
 
oh my... em, I'm quite new to RCX and know where to find DEB - but where can I find the ADD tools... maybe I'm blind... or stupid... ????:bored:
 
Daniel Stilling said:
I have seen so many DP's that don't understand RED's way of recording an image underexpose severely footage, because they "feel" that the key light is bright and they will close down on the lens 1 or 2 stops, starving the sensor from light. This to me looks like a typical example, but it is conjecture unless you know the exact settings the camera and lens had for these particular shots...
Click to expand...


This.

Stop lights and goal posts are your friends. :smiley:
 
I think it's important to realize that when you send your camera in for a Dragon upgrade, you are essentially getting a brand new camera, different sensor, etc.

while all the controls, body, powering it up, monitors, etc might be the same, the camera is not.

You really have to test it and treat it like a whole new camera because it behaves and responds differently. Just because it looks the same does not mean that it will respond exactly as MX did.

I have not seen an r3d but (and I only say this because there have been many threads like yours) but the problem might be one of three things.

1. Black shading calibration was not done at recording/operating temperature or at all.
2. The shot was underexposed (looked good on the monitor but r3d is actually underexposed) and the histogram is left leaning)
3. A combination of 1&2
4. The "noisy" shots were not recorded when the camera was not yet at operating temperature.

Your dragon probably shipped with the STH (skin tone highlight OLPF). This OLPF favours highlight detail and softer rolloff into the highlights the camera does not "hard clip" as the MX did. It means you can open up more when there is plenty of light and the camera won't have that hard top end clipping that MX did. It also means you have to be more careful in low light situations as with less light you can introduce more texture/grain/noise or whatever you prefer to call it. (I say this because film guys call it grain or texture, but video guys see it as noise).

So, a common thing on EPIC MX is that people have gotten used to protecting highlights by under exposing. The dragon is sort of opposite, you can rate and expose one stop over with good results. More like motion picture film.

RED is now also offering a LLO (low light optimized) OLPF that can be interchanged if you prefer to stay in the MX style of protecting highlights a bit more. This OLPF is cleaner in low light situations, but is not as bang on color accurate as the STH olpf.

cheers,

battistella
 
Peter Granqvist said:
oh my... em, I'm quite new to RCX and know where to find DEB - but where can I find the ADD tools... maybe I'm blind... or stupid... ????:bored:
Click to expand...

ADD is in the export settings and only relevant for Dragon.

You're probably not blind or stupid! :)
 
mange takk gunleik... trodde ikkje eg var dumt...:beer:
 
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