Dragon / Epic / Scarlet Camera Beta Build 5.1.23

[Chase M. Wrenn]

Simple "mode" aside, the new GUI layout in recent builds is real slick and speedier now that I've had time to shoot with it more. Nice redesign there.

Agreed, finally updated to the more recent build this weekend and the new GUI definitely sped things up a bit.

 

[Trent Lillehaugen]

Simple "mode" aside, the new GUI layout in recent builds is real slick and speedier now that I've had time to shoot with it more. Nice redesign there.

I'm glad to hear you like it. Our goal was to make subtle changes and additions that streamline the experience.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Never, never make an erasing "feature" happen. No good. Bad idea. Can't warn enough!

The only advantage is saving disk space on the Red media. This problem can easily be solved with an extra Red SSD. We never had that option with film and no one ever missed it. And choices are not always good.

Hans

I'm pretty sure a lot of people would have embraced this feature with film if it had been possible !

I don't get it. Why would the people who don't like this feature want to keep the others from using it ? Even if it exists some day, you can still pretend it doesn't and keep going as before...

Reds get used in many, many different situations, from big features to small one man crew shoots. The needs aren't the same, and for some shooting situations, believe me, being able to erase a clip in camera (at least the last one) would be incredibly useful.

In this particular case (as in many others), yes, choice is good.

We will never delete clips in the field... mark for delete is one thing.. but we have enough problems with people accidentally formatting their mags ( and we get blamed for it more often than not, and every week we spend alot of money trying to fix formated mags that people send us ) that having a button that deletes clips is just too much liability.

Thanks.

Sanity wins.

Hans

 

[John Marchant]

Its really helped the usability. I love how far things have come on this front. Always more that can be done though- every time you guys clean up the UI you add more cool stuff that needs a home

 

[Casey Green]

...We will never delete clips in the field... mark for delete is one thing.. but we have enough problems with people accidentally formatting their mags ( and we get blamed for it more often than not, and every week we spend alot of money trying to fix formated mags that people send us ) that having a button that deletes clips is just too much liability.

I totally agree with this philosophy. I know in a perfect world, we all would never have an occasion where clips accidentally got deleted, but this is the safer route, and like I said, there are plenty of safe workarounds. Have extra mags, delete in post...

Imagine you are on a Blockbuster film and your loader accidentally deleted the circle take? Imagine you are out on a nature doc and in desperation, you try to clear space to delete a clip, but it's the wrong one? I believe RED would be blamed for these user errors and proper prep is the better answer.

Definitely a tough one, but this issue has been raised since the inception of RED ONE, and always comes back around to the greater good.

That being said, please remove the default hotkey for Eject on the Side Handle... SSD User buttons 1+2 are already there and efficient.

 

[Paul Russell]

We will never delete clips in the field... mark for delete is one thing

Fair enough. So can we have 'mark for delete', please?
Preferably at directory level so that we don't have to copy them from the RedMags.

 

[Craig Lees]

That being said, please remove the default hotkey for Eject on the Side Handle... SSD User buttons 1+2 are already there and efficient.

-1 on this. Sorry but the double button eject on the SSD Module is one of my favourite hotkeys on our 3D rigs for quick mag turnarounds.

Craig Lees
Red & 3D stuff
UK
www.3dstories.co.uk

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

UI is key... it's the reason I never bothered to shoot much on Sony gear.

I really love the touch interface its funny to see Redusers work on Alexa or Sony and I catch them touching the screen to change settings.

I think it's pretty easy yea theres a learning curve but thats with anything.

As a DIT it always helps to show other users on set new shortcuts and run the menu with them. I always let them take control (do the touching) and I tell them where to push/swipe and why... This gives operators more confidence and they now physically did the task so they're more inclined to figure it out than ask me to do it. The more they interact with the cameras UI the better they learn and appreciate Reds hard work.

At the end of the show they're Pros and know the ins/outs of the camera it's cool to see.

 

[Justin Batchelor]

Just a word about the Adaptive Fan mode. It's flippin' brilliant. I film lots of theatre, both high end and independants. The high end is easy because I am usually up the back with a long lens and the music and carry on on stage covers up any peaks in fan noise. With the indies however, I am usually in the thick of it, in spaces that are poorl airconditioned and all the lights up n stage.

Two shows later, the Adaptive mode was an absolute winner, hovering between 45% and 52% for VERY LONG records of an hour and a half each time. Very little noise. Absolutely stoked that this can now be the main cam for some fantastic performances on stage.

Ta Red.

 

[AndreasOberg]

We will never delete clips in the field... mark for delete is one thing.. but we have enough problems with people accidentally formatting their mags ( and we get blamed for it more often than not, and every week we spend alot of money trying to fix formated mags that people send us ) that having a button that deletes clips is just too much liability.

Preparing to get some fire I don't agree. I know Red is used a lot on big blockbusters, but if you are far out in the wilderness tracking animals for a long time filming, its not fun to not be able to delete clips. Ok, sure if we buy a couple of more 512GB mags for 3900$ each that will help, but sometimes you do a shot and realize "that was not a good shot" or you do different tests that can be very long, then it creates a mess to have them all there. Mark for delete would help quite a bit of course.
I don't understand why it can't be a locked feature with a secure code to be typed in each time. I mean if my still photo cameras would not have a delete function I would be equally unhappy. When you have such a powerful camera as the Red it will be used for different things, in some cases delete is very useful and in other situations its not. That is why options are useful.



/Andreas

 

[Max M.]

Preparing to get some fire I don't agree. I know Red is used a lot on big blockbusters, but if you are far out in the wilderness tracking animals for a long time filming, its not fun to not be able to delete clips. Ok, sure if we buy a couple of more 512GB mags for 3900$ each that will help, but sometimes you do a shot and realize "that was not a good shot" or you do different tests that can be very long, then it creates a mess to have them all there. Mark for delete would help quite a bit of course.
I don't understand why it can't be a locked feature with a secure code to be typed in each time. I mean if my still photo cameras would not have a delete function I would be equally unhappy. When you have such a powerful camera as the Red it will be used for different things, in some cases delete is very useful and in other situations its not. That is why options are useful.

/Andreas

Totally agree. Not having the choice to delete a clip is just a pain in the ass. I think it's ridiculous people would blame RED for accidentally formatting mags, they press the wrong buttons, can't blame the camera or company for that. Just as andreas says: Make it an menu option with a pincode if that would be the way, but at least just give us the choice. A lot of users want it, and people who don't want it/need it, will not even notice it's there if it's somewhere in the menu. I think it's too narrow minded thinking of RED not willing to implement it out of fear for liability issues. Please RED, i really hope one day you guys change your mind and implement it

 

[Marie Turock]

I completely agree as well. The ability to delete clips in camera should be enabled, and it continues to surprise me that it hasn't been.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

How a delete option can be a liability issue? If so, then many newbies handling DSLRs would have sued companies.

I assume people who are using high end cameras like RED will not have a problem with the delete button. When one clicks on the delete button, it should ask a question "are you sure to delete this clip?" and then two buttons - Click Yes or NO. So it is a two step process and will not result in accidental deletion of clips.

Also, you can include a protect or lock the clip button to stop any clip from accidental deletion.

 

[Phil Holland]

How a delete option can be a liability issue? If so, then many newbies handling DSLRs would have sued companies.

I assume people who are using high end cameras like RED will not have a problem with the delete button. When one clicks on the delete button, it should ask a question "are you sure to delete this clip?" and then two buttons - Click Yes or NO. So it is a two step process and will not result in accidental deletion of clips.

Also, you can include a protect or lock the clip button to stop any clip from accidental deletion.

while all valid points from a high end and rental perspective its just better not to have it. Whether you're working on a $1000 setup or $1,000,000 bad things can and will happen.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

while all valid points from a high end and rental perspective its just better not to have it. Whether you're working on a $1000 setup or $1,000,000 bad things can and will happen.

I'll add to this that there is a change in the mindset of those around the camera when there is a delete option, rather than only the format option. With a lot of people and departments swirling around a camera, having it be as binary as "Keep everything on the mag" or "Format and lose everything on the mag", streamlines and simplifies the possible workflows.

Also, if you delete a clip, do you skip that clip number? Do you go back and fill it in? If an editor is looking down a list of clips from a setup, and sees A030_C021_0111, A030_C022_0111, A030_C024_0111, and wishes that (s)he had another option, (s)he is going to start looking for A030_C023_0111. Then they won't find it. Then they'll panic and start a whole long chain of blame, from assistant editors to script supervisors to DIT, all because the camera op accidentally hit record for a second, and so the AC deleted the useless clip.

Maybe you'd call it a holdover from the days of film. But there's something to be said for What We Shot Is All Of What We Shot, as it is now.

 

[Max M.]

Nick, i get your point, but a lot or red's are used in different ways than with ac's and different editors, and workflows including multiple people. For self editing shooters this would not be a problem. And red could make a DELETED CLIP thumbnail for in redcine for those numbers, then it's clear to editors also. Not to complicated. Speaking of thumbnails, when will thumbnail playback view come??

Phil, why would high end and rental have any problems with it, if it was a menu option protected by a pincode that only a rental company would have or a one person on set. It's completely manageable. With computers and hard drives you can delete anything you want also, no one getting angry or blaming apple or western digital for accidentally self deleting a file? I really feel red should give us the choice, and why bother if you don't want it, it would change anything?

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, why would high end and rental have any problems with it, if it was a menu option protected by a pincode that only a rental company would have or a one person on set. It's completely manageable. With computers and hard drives you can delete anything you want also, no one getting angry or blaming apple or western digital for accidentally self deleting a file? I really feel red should give us the choice, and why bother if you don't want it, it would change anything?

Again. I get the appeal and desire for the deletion of clips. I would love that for a variety of work I do.

However.

I am a realist about this. The second something like this is implemented is the second it can cause potential disaster. Even if it's protected by lock and key within the firmware. Renter X says to you "hey I'd like to shoot with the ability to delete clips on my project because we're doing lots of takes of dropping strawberries into cream and we need to get it just right". One week later "hey while shooting bathing strawberry erotica I accidentally deleted a take I wanted, I thought I flagged it for protection, but I didn't and wiped the take. Can I recover this?". Keep in mind Red gets those requests now without even having a delete option in there. That's one of the reasons I'm pleased as a pickle that's there's a nice warning graphic on the format screen now.

On larger productions, you don't even want to go there. We lost a reel of O-neg on Gigli and had to salvage some shots from a print for the feature. Something that should never be done. If that print wasn't made that footage would have been lost. The beach location, set pieces, crew, talent, the massive amount of extras all would have been needed to be shot again. That wasn't a cheap day and I'm not talking Transformers here even. There was also a shot lost with two of the stars that would have been an easy reshoot that had to be salvaged. Reshoots happen, but you never, ever want them to happen because of an accidental deletion of a clip.

And yes. If you call up any major hard drive manufacturer they will tell you that they do indeed receive deleted data requests on drives. I have a very close relative who has worked for several of those companies developing tools to do exactly that. He's got stories that would blow your mind. "Hey we lost about 200TB of data due to a weird chown script typo running overnight and wiping the drives. Is there anyway we can get that back?"

I'm sure Red could implement it. I'm sure it would satisfy everybody who asks for it. This is one of those things where to protect the few it effects the masses sort of things. I shoot Red like I shoot film. On set burn a REDMAG and either dump it via DIT or whatever, or have enough on hand and dump later (which I shockingly do a lot for my shoots as I'm often part of production and post). It's the safest way. Eliminating the variable of accidental catastrophic data loss due to use operation error is a good thing.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I think it's ridiculous people would blame RED for accidentally formatting mags, they press the wrong buttons...

No question. But they will. And loudly enough to stop some producers from going Red.

We will never delete clips in the field... mark for delete is one thing.. but we have enough problems with people accidentally formatting their mags ( and we get blamed for it more often than not, and every week we spend alot of money trying to fix formated mags that people send us ) that having a button that deletes clips is just too much liability.

Really tragic that we live in that world, from a personal responsibility standpoint. No excuse for it. I can't imagine how I'd feel having to cripple my product to cater to idiots lest their whining ruin my reputation - just watching you have to do it infuriates me.

But the other standpoint is the technological understanding side. My impression is that motion is still in the phase of the digital transition where there are tons of cinematographers and directors out there who have never used any kind of digital camera before or, beyond email, a computer. Stills, ten years into their digital transition, apparently doesn't have this problem (since everyone has a delete button and I've never seen a single forum post blaming the camera for a deletion [not counting write errors]). So I wonder if things will be different in a few years.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I am a realist about this. The second something like this is implemented is the second it can cause potential disaster. Even if it's protected by lock and key within the firmware. Renter X says to you "hey I'd like to shoot with the ability to delete clips on my project because we're doing lots of takes of dropping strawberries into cream and we need to get it just right". One week later "hey while shooting bathing strawberry erotica I accidentally deleted a take I wanted, I thought I flagged it for protection, but I didn't and wiped the take. Can I recover this?". Keep in mind Red gets those requests now without even having a delete option in there. That's one of the reasons I'm pleased as a pickle that's there's a nice warning graphic on the format screen now.

Yeah no doubt the rental unlock idea doesn't work. But a confirm pin / combo every time you press the delete button makes sense. Hell, I think a nice warning graphic is plenty, but I guess I'm tech savvy compared to some (says more about them than me, I assure you).

..."hey while shooting bathing strawberry erotica I accidentally deleted a take I wanted, I thought I flagged it for protection, but I didn't and wiped the take. Can I recover this?". Keep in mind Red gets those requests now without even having a delete option in there...

The thing is, that's perfectly fine. Mistakes are always going to happen. The cinema industry's entitlement problem isn't with people needing that service, it's that people would blame Red (loudly) if they needed that service AND expect that service to be free.

 

[Les Dittert]

I'm sure this was mentioned, but the format function is easily something that could be run, without a pin code, or much protection. I think it's enough for the yellow/black warning screen. Would the cautious folks be happy if the delete last clip function had TWO such warning screens, making the current format more easy to accidentally run ?

I think a last clip delete wouldn't be terribly difficult to implement, as there would be no storage fragmentation.
Not everybody is 'on set'. No DIT standing by for my stuff out in the middle of nowhere.