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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon / Epic / Scarlet Camera Beta Build 5.1.23

Bobby Farokhzad said:
Erasing clips in camera is a feature I've been wanting ever since I became a Red user, I still don't understand why Red doesn't implement this. It will make everyone's life a whole lot easier.
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Casey Green said:
Gotta say, I'm one for not having delete in camera. I think the risk for productions is too high and there are easy work arounds...
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It's a tough topic. For many "film folks" this isn't a feature that is desired because it doesn't really exist in that world. However, for those familiar with other digital systems that have that feature it allowed for a more free way of working in case mistakes happen.

Three things to take note really:

From a data integrity perspective I'm really, really on the side of not having anything potentially muck with the card. It would suck if somehow, someway that one clip you deleted screwed up every following shot recorded on the card.

From a user error perspective, same deal. Once you allow something like this within the ecosystem it becomes a ticking time bomb. On big productions or even having a switch on a rental camera, it's just too easy to lose something.

From a convenience perspective, of course it would be wonderful. Save media takes on burned takes. Freedom to really just "play" with certain types of setups.


So with that, I'd say two out of those 3 things are bad. Like catastrophic "oh my god" what happened bad. Perhaps this is one of those things where it's better to play it safe. I treat working on digital cinema cameras like shooting on film. Fill up a mag, plop in another. For me it's not really different at all. Hell, having more than 11 minutes of recording time for that matter is mind blowing convenience if you come from that world.
 
The "delete last clip" proposition on the previous page seems rather simple and should not do damage to the file system, I guess ?
If Red could do only that, I would be pleased. Most of us don't need a really complete media manager part.

But in case of false take, or when the sound guy wants the camera to be recording, not turned of, it could be usefull just to delete the last clip. Or somethimes in between the take, when manipulating handled setup, the finger can slip on the rec button.
 
From the standpoint of EFP, I would love to have the ability to mark and delete clips in camera. The function could even be password enabled, so the user or owner took full responsibility for the action. It could be disabled for rental / big productions but for owner-operators working in documentary/ EFP it would be a great option.

Each day I return from the field I review takes on a laptop and delete the NG ones before the cards are backed up and proxies made. If I could do this during downtime in the day, it would save me an hour at the end of the day ( an hour when I am a tired, and most likely to make a mistake ).
Certainly, there will be the very rare mistake - but on the production I am currently working on, in two years of shooting, I have not knowingly deleted a 'keeper', and it would have saved me c. 500 hrs.
 
Perhaps a compromise would help.
It would be nice to mark the clip as a reject in camera. Not deleted, just marked 'reject'. Then for people like Mark Deeble (and me) who spend a lot of time watching crap clips before transcoding, a reject mark would be a godsend. In fact it would have saved me 8 hours today.

All it would have to consist of would be a suffix or prefix added to a folder name on the redmag, so that we don't copy over the rejects onto the edit computer.

For example:

Clip folder name = A007_C003_1002SB.RDC
Rejected clip folder name = R-A007_C003_1002SB.RDC

Filtering out the rejects at the transfer level would save heaps of time and not mess around with Redmag file system.
 
Never, never make an erasing "feature" happen. No good. Bad idea. Can't warn enough!

The only advantage is saving disk space on the Red media. This problem can easily be solved with an extra Red SSD. We never had that option with film and no one ever missed it. And choices are not always good.

Hans
 
Paul Russell said:
Perhaps a compromise would help.
It would be nice to mark the clip as a reject in camera. Not deleted, just marked 'reject'. Then for people like Mark Deeble (and me) who spend a lot of time watching crap clips before transcoding, a reject mark would be a godsend. In fact it would have saved me 8 hours today.

All it would have to consist of would be a suffix or prefix added to a folder name on the redmag, so that we don't copy over the rejects onto the edit computer.

For example:

Clip folder name = A007_C003_1002SB.RDC
Rejected clip folder name = R-A007_C003_1002SB.RDC

Filtering out the rejects at the transfer level would save heaps of time and not mess around with Redmag file system.
Click to expand...
I would support this option. Data transfer software could also support it by allowing you to tick a box not to transfer rejected takes. This obviously wouldn't help with running out of space on your cards, but it would speed up the transfer and backup process quite a bit.
 
I like the sound of this idea too, or something along those lines anyway
 
Paul Russell said:
Perhaps a compromise would help.
It would be nice to mark the clip as a reject in camera. Not deleted, just marked 'reject'. Then for people like Mark Deeble (and me) who spend a lot of time watching crap clips before transcoding, a reject mark would be a godsend. In fact it would have saved me 8 hours today.

All it would have to consist of would be a suffix or prefix added to a folder name on the redmag, so that we don't copy over the rejects onto the edit computer.

For example:

Clip folder name = A007_C003_1002SB.RDC
Rejected clip folder name = R-A007_C003_1002SB.RDC

Filtering out the rejects at the transfer level would save heaps of time and not mess around with Redmag file system.
Click to expand...


Im still wating for the good take marking. Cant express how much i miss it from the hvx200 times.
 
Someone please explain this to me because I think I am missing something here... In today's age with today's modern technology should there really be a "risk" in deleting a digital file??? I own a pair of Panasonic P2 cameras
since 2007 (I know I know, I should have gotten the Red One back then) and I have been selecting and deleting clips on set for six years without once loosing anything... not just the last clip, but any clip or multiple clips for that matter. As far as "film folks" not being comfortable with a feature like this I completely understand and respect that but when has this ever stopped Red from doing what they think is the right thing to do. If anything, Red has always been the one compony that was disruptive (in a very good way) towards "film folks". As always, just my humble opinion.
 
Bobby Farokhzad said:
I own a pair of Panasonic P2 cameras since 2007 (I know I know, I should have gotten the Red One back then) and I have been selecting and deleting clips on set for six years without once loosing anything...
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I *did* lose clips after deleting stuff (using the camera) corrupted a P2 card's filesystem. It became my personal policy after that to never delete clips or otherwise mess with a live card. Works most of the time, sure. But sometimes there is no second take. On Red, I just dump and format the card often, and before any shot setup / experimentation. Bad takes are what they are, and honestly, even the worst of the worst have saved me in the editing room, so I'm happy to keep them all. If you really need the space, just keep another card handy. Costs less than the pain and frustration of losing data, in my opinion.
 
Paul Russell said:
Perhaps a compromise would help.
It would be nice to mark the clip as a reject in camera. Not deleted, just marked 'reject'. Then for people like Mark Deeble (and me) who spend a lot of time watching crap clips before transcoding, a reject mark would be a godsend. In fact it would have saved me 8 hours today.

All it would have to consist of would be a suffix or prefix added to a folder name on the redmag, so that we don't copy over the rejects onto the edit computer.

For example:

Clip folder name = A007_C003_1002SB.RDC
Rejected clip folder name = R-A007_C003_1002SB.RDC

Filtering out the rejects at the transfer level would save heaps of time and not mess around with Redmag file system.
Click to expand...


I'd like to take that a step further... I would REALLY love to be able to LABEL the clip name in the field! This is a HUGE time saver in post!

I was the DP for the Fox Television show America's Most Wanted for five years. I moved them from SD to HD, and from tape to XDCam HD. We shot many 'acts' in the show, some involving the host, John Walsh, while others didn't. For the portions with the host I could "pre-label" a clip in the camera. For example, I could label the clip "Act1.1," "Act1.3," "Act5.1," etc. This helped the post team TREMENDOUSLY! When the XDCam optical disc was ingested into the Avid Unity server, folks could look at the clip names and know who was supposed to cut what, without ever having to open a clip or check out a thumbnail! (Typically, Act 1 was cut by one person, Act 2 by another, and so on...) When we shot the crime recreations each week, we could label by scene number from the script to help post. For the "news of the week" type pieces, we could label the clips according to content too: "Smith_Int", "Timelapse" "Crime Scene", etc.

This is the ONE feature I truly miss from our XDCam HD productions. I don't know how hard it would be to implement. Perhaps there's a way to keep the current naming structure and choose between that and another. (That too is the way XDCam works! You can choose the conventional naming structure or a custom one!) Perhaps, similar to XDCam HD, Red would allow for the operator to 'pre-label' a certain number of clips on a computer ahead of time. In the XDCam world, for example, you're allowed 20 clip names. It's a simple .txt file that is saved with a particular name in a particular folder in a particular folder structure and that list is view-able and selectable in camera.

Sony XDCam cameras also allow for the marking of clips as in "good" or "NG" too.

I do respect the view points of former film users, but features like these and the ability to delete clips in the field are forward thinking concepts. I never had any problems with our P2 or XDCam HD cameras in this respect. I think all of us have wasted precious data space by accidentally pressing the record button, or perhaps not pressing it hard enough to stop the record! I think the OPTION of allowing PROFESSIONALS to make their own decisions in the field regarding their projects is the right thing to do! After all, if the camera thinks something is too dark or too bright, it doesn't just lock you out and NOT allow you to shoot it that way! Maybe it's a mistake! But perhaps it's an artistic choice! In any event, these cameras as others have stated are PROFESSIONAL cameras intended to be used by professionals, and therefore there is no "auto" anything! If the image looks great, it's because it was captured that way! I like that. I like the ability to make choices!
 
Curt Pair said:
I'd like to take that a step further... I would REALLY love to be able to LABEL the clip name in the field! This is a HUGE time saver in post!

I was the DP for the Fox Television show America's Most Wanted for five years. I moved them from SD to HD, and from tape to XDCam HD. We shot many 'acts' in the show, some involving the host, John Walsh, while others didn't. For the portions with the host I could "pre-label" a clip in the camera. For example, I could label the clip "Act1.1," "Act1.3," "Act5.1," etc. This helped the post team TREMENDOUSLY! When the XDCam optical disc was ingested into the Avid Unity server, folks could look at the clip names and know who was supposed to cut what, without ever having to open a clip or check out a thumbnail! (Typically, Act 1 was cut by one person, Act 2 by another, and so on...) When we shot the crime recreations each week, we could label by scene number from the script to help post. For the "news of the week" type pieces, we could label the clips according to content too: "Smith_Int", "Timelapse" "Crime Scene", etc.

This is the ONE feature I truly miss from our XDCam HD productions. I don't know how hard it would be to implement. Perhaps there's a way to keep the current naming structure and choose between that and another. (That too is the way XDCam works! You can choose the conventional naming structure or a custom one!) Perhaps, similar to XDCam HD, Red would allow for the operator to 'pre-label' a certain number of clips on a computer ahead of time. In the XDCam world, for example, you're allowed 20 clip names. It's a simple .txt file that is saved with a particular name in a particular folder in a particular folder structure and that list is view-able and selectable in camera.

Sony XDCam cameras also allow for the marking of clips as in "good" or "NG" too.

I do respect the view points of former film users, but features like these and the ability to delete clips in the field are forward thinking concepts. I never had any problems with our P2 or XDCam HD cameras in this respect. I think all of us have wasted precious data space by accidentally pressing the record button, or perhaps not pressing it hard enough to stop the record! I think the OPTION of allowing PROFESSIONALS to make their own decisions in the field regarding their projects is the right thing to do! After all, if the camera thinks something is too dark or too bright, it doesn't just lock you out and NOT allow you to shoot it that way! Maybe it's a mistake! But perhaps it's an artistic choice! In any event, these cameras as others have stated are PROFESSIONAL cameras intended to be used by professionals, and therefore there is no "auto" anything! If the image looks great, it's because it was captured that way! I like that. I like the ability to make choices!
Click to expand...

It's not exactly what you are looking for but we do have a SCENE name and TAKE number (which will auto increment) you can set in the SLATE dialog (Menu > Settings > Project > Slate). This is stored as meta data and can be quickly extracted using redline if you wanted to automate some steps in post.
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
Never, never make an erasing "feature" happen. No good. Bad idea. Can't warn enough!

The only advantage is saving disk space on the Red media. This problem can easily be solved with an extra Red SSD. We never had that option with film and no one ever missed it. And choices are not always good.

Hans
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure a lot of people would have embraced this feature with film if it had been possible !

I don't get it. Why would the people who don't like this feature want to keep the others from using it ? Even if it exists some day, you can still pretend it doesn't and keep going as before... ;)

Reds get used in many, many different situations, from big features to small one man crew shoots. The needs aren't the same, and for some shooting situations, believe me, being able to erase a clip in camera (at least the last one) would be incredibly useful.

In this particular case (as in many others), yes, choice is good.
 
Call me contrarian, but I would like to see a minimalist firmware option to load when using the camera in a guerrilla-style shoot. Include all the frame rates, time base, etc. but leave off all the camera sync, 3d capability and anything else in the firmware that might cause a glitch.

I may be totally wrong but it is my opinion that layers of complexity leaves a system open to failures.

Not saying Swiss Army Knife firmware is a bad thing, just sayin' that like my car which begs a course at a community college to learn how to operate all features, knowing all the features doesn't mean I have need for them. Sometimes I just want to put 'er in gear and go.
 
simple interface is coming.. been working on that for awhile. Lockout settings etc..

We will never delete clips in the field... mark for delete is one thing.. but we have enough problems with people accidentally formatting their mags ( and we get blamed for it more often than not, and every week we spend alot of money trying to fix formated mags that people send us ) that having a button that deletes clips is just too much liability.
 
Jarred Land said:
simple interface is coming.. been working on that for awhile. Lockout settings etc..
Click to expand...


Simple "mode" aside, the new GUI layout in recent builds is real slick and speedier now that I've had time to shoot with it more. Nice redesign there.
 
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