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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Double Dragon....

Yikes. What a formidable looking…. tool. This DR is the dragon's ass. ( :


2:1 is ( arguably) a fine enough ratio for cinema. Ideally, I would like to see a square sensor that provides for more stills aspect ratios. A low (stills) frame rate to cover the additional data overhead at full sensor output, if need be. A Dragon-blad, so to speak. Less Hassel, more Dragon. ( :
 
I asked a question last friday and was amazed that not only did no one know the answer, but nobody, not even a poster with over 13,000 posts, knew what I was talking about.

My question was, is Red addressing in any way the issue of the sensor size and how it's too big for some lenses, some of them very popular?

-Angenieux Optino DP 16-42's and 30-80, a couple of our most popular lenses, didn't fit physically in the Epic because the lens mount is too shallow. Angenieux will modify them but for a price.

That's the only one I remember off the top of my head that just didn't fit physically when it should have, but here is a list of lenses we carry that vignette on the Epic.
-Angenieux 20-120
-Zeiss Variprime 16-30
-Angenieux 25-250

So I'm wondering how many more of our lenses won't work on the Dragon due to vignetting, or if Red is planning to remedy this somehow. Thank you.

EDIT: typo
 
Last edited:
The only way to deal with any lens shortcomings is to shoot with a different crop factor until there are more lenses available.



Adam Watson said:
I asked a question last friday and was amazed that not only did no one know the answer, but nobody, not even a poster with over 13,000 posts, knew what I was talking about.

My question was, is Red addressing in any way the issue of the sensor size and how it's too big for some lenses, some of them very popular?

-Angenieux Optino DP 16-42's and 30-80, a couple of our most popular lenses, didn't fit physically in the Epic because the lens mount is too shallow. Angenieux will modify them but for a price.

That's the only one I remember off the top of my head that just didn't fit physically when it should have, but here is a list of lenses we carry that vignette on the Epic.
-Angenieux 20-120
-Zeiss Variprime 16-30
-Angenieux 25-250

So I'm wondering how many more of our lenses won't work on the Dragon due to vignetting, or if Red is planning to remedy this somehow. Thank you.

EDIT: typo
Click to expand...
 
Adam Watson said:
I asked a question last friday and was amazed that not only did no one know the answer, but nobody, not even a poster with over 13,000 posts, knew what I was talking about.

My question was, is Red addressing in any way the issue of the sensor size and how it's too big for some lenses, some of them very popular?

-Angenieux Optino DP 16-42's and 30-80, a couple of our most popular lenses, didn't fit physically in the Epic because the lens mount is too shallow. Angenieux will modify them but for a price.

That's the only one I remember off the top of my head that just didn't fit physically when it should have, but here is a list of lenses we carry that vignette on the Epic.
-Angenieux 20-120
-Zeiss Variprime 16-30
-Angenieux 25-250

So I'm wondering how many more of our lenses won't work on the Dragon due to vignetting, or if Red is planning to remedy this somehow. Thank you.

EDIT: typo
Click to expand...

+1
dont hold your breath. . .
 
Adam Watson said:
I asked a question last friday and was amazed that not only did no one know the answer, but nobody, not even a poster with over 13,000 posts, knew what I was talking about.

My question was, is Red addressing in any way the issue of the sensor size and how it's too big for some lenses, some of them very popular?

-Angenieux Optino DP 16-42's and 30-80, a couple of our most popular lenses, didn't fit physically in the Epic because the lens mount is too shallow. Angenieux will modify them but for a price.

That's the only one I remember off the top of my head that just didn't fit physically when it should have, but here is a list of lenses we carry that vignette on the Epic.
-Angenieux 20-120
-Zeiss Variprime 16-30
-Angenieux 25-250

So I'm wondering how many more of our lenses won't work on the Dragon due to vignetting, or if Red is planning to remedy this somehow. Thank you.

EDIT: typo
Click to expand...

Adam, I think you are exaggerating the issue. All lenses "will work". There just might be some compromises, which are inevitable with a single sensor offering. Most of those compromises are relatively trivial.

I personally would like the Dragon to cover 36x24mm (42mm circle) due to the lenses that I use most. But, I also use Master Primes that only cover 31mm image circle, so clearly one size does not fit all.

The good news is that Dragon's smaller pixels will still improve the resolution of S35 glass compared to the current MX sensor and, at the same time, the 10% larger size will improve the coverage on FF 35mm lenses.

I don't see it much of a problem having to crop the sensor for 31mm image circle unless you really need 6k and going to large screen. But, even then, 5k would be more than adequate. It is more of an issue that the sensor is not large enough to get the field of view of FF 35mm lenses as, in my case, there are no wider lenses available.

Ideally I'd like two sensor choices: one fitting inside 42mm image circle and one inside 31mm image circle. The Dragon seems to be a (very workable) compromise. But also an improvement any way you look at it.
 
I agree that just cropping down and shooting in 4K is more than enough for me but it irks me that they wouldn't just put those extra K's in the standard size sensor and not make it bigger physically. I mean, what's the point of making it bigger anyway? The cons outweigh the pros in my eyes. I know DP's that were essentially being forced to choose a DSLR to shoot with a couple years ago, most of them choose the 7D because the focusing issues the full frame 5D creates. I know the sensor isn't quite that big but the assertion still stands. I suppose it could be that the Dragon sensor is meant more for IMAX replacement but affordable for many, but it's doesn't seem like that the emphasis being placed by Red even if it is true. Bottom line for me is that our customers don't take kindly to hear that they can't use the lens and the full resolution of the camera they're renting that's being touted as a S35 style camera, at the same time.
 
Rudi Herbert said:
This should not be misconstrued to say that RED does not have awesome color science, which it does, but for me, the MOST important factor of any future digital imaging development is the color science.
Click to expand...


I agree with you, but I don't see any big trouble with RED's color science. I'm grading a feature I shot in very complicated lights conditions with black people and don't see any trouble with skin tones. R3D are such a pleasure to work with. I never was in a situation where I had to fight to find the right skin tone.

Biggest trouble I got is color correcting at 1/4 res in high ISO shots when I had constantly to switch between Full res to look at real noise level/saturation/contrast and 1/4 res for playback.

6k is a problem for most of us in post-production. Even If Jarred dismissed the call from various people on this thread for a better and cheaper Rocket card solution, I still hope RED will listen.

Patrick
 
Adam Watson said:
I asked a question last friday and was amazed that not only did no one know the answer, but nobody, not even a poster with over 13,000 posts, knew what I was talking about.
Click to expand...

Hi Adam,

Based on what we know as of this very second, with Dragon's current pixel size, Dragon's 5K can be thought of as "S35 coverage". Take a look at this thread and the information/graphics I've created:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92999-Red-Dragon-Info-and-Data-Sheets

6K HD may even cover some of the lenses that cut it close or vignette today.
 
I see it as more of a use case issue. For some projects that extra real estate is a plus, even if it means some lenses won't cover. Besides, there are actually more photo sites within the 31mm image circle (or whatever number you feel properly represents S35 coverage) on Dragon than on the MX chip. FWIW super sampling at 6K for a 4K master is most valuable for nature docs, large vistas, plates and other use cases where one would be less likely to use a great narrative lens like the Angie DP Rouge compact zooms anyway. As you alluded to in your note about the 7D vs the 5D, narrative work may not be the best place to go beyond S35/APS-C frame size. IMO, the Dragon specs seem like a smart compromise that should support multiple use cases with great aplomb.

BTW, not sure where your customers expectations originated, but carping that the luxury car you just bought won't get 50 MPG while going 200 MPH is hardly evidence that the manufacturer doesn't understand the market, but that the customer doesn't understand physics.

Cheers - #19
 
Phil, thanks for the sheet, it's helpful. It's comforting that the 5K resolution looks like it will be safe for all lenses thanks to the smaller photosites being used. However while the difference may look small on such a sheet regarding 6K, it is still significant, especially to our clientele. While said DP's choose 7D, the same number would complain about the crop factor which I believe is more slight than the difference in question.

Blair, I understand that all too well brother. But you understand I couldn't say that to a customer ;) , we just want to make them happy and stuff like that just doesn't do us any favors even with all the other bells and whistles. As for the photosite count, if Sony can cram 17.5 million photosites on to a standard S35 size sensor I don't see why Red couldn't fit 19 milliion on to nearly the same, see what I'm saying?
 
Jim/Jannard/Ted

Just following up my own comment about post and transcoding. I was in at one of Australia's longest standing commercial production companies for a meeting about another job and saw them fiddling around with RedCine-X. So I wandered over and helped them set up an Export preset
so they could transcode rushes from a job shot on both the Alexa and the Epic. Of course the Alexa rushes were all ready to go but the Epic's needed to be transcoded for the edit - things we all know. Easy enough to set it all up they were using a recent 27" iMac - BUT the transcode was probably going to take them overnight approx 12-18hrs at full debayer.

The owner (one of Australia's most senior commercials directors) and I were chatting about it and of course said ahh the bloody Red always so much stuffing around in post. Now I know how to take care of it as do probably most people on this thread, sure put a Red Rocket in the mix and you're away. Of course being an Epic owner I defended the Epic saying it's a great camera it's just a little misunderstood.

BUT guys I'm telling you, people turn there noses up at the Epic for this very reason. You need to open up transcoding to GPUs and you need to come up with a module for ProRes that doesn't cost $13K and can go higher than 60fps.

The Sony's F55 with Dual record and no rolling shutter effect is looking very impressive and I urge you guys to take notice.
 
Rushes at full debayer? Kind of overkill.

Adam Howden said:
Jim/Jannard/Ted

Just following up my own comment about post and transcoding. I was in at one of Australia's longest standing commercial production companies for a meeting about another job and saw them fiddling around with RedCine-X. So I wandered over and helped them set up an Export preset
so they could transcode rushes from a job shot on both the Alexa and the Epic. Of course the Alexa rushes were all ready to go but the Epic's needed to be transcoded for the edit - things we all know. Easy enough to set it all up they were using a recent 27" iMac - BUT the transcode was probably going to take them overnight approx 12-18hrs at full debayer.

The owner (one of Australia's most senior commercials directors) and I were chatting about it and of course said ahh the bloody Red always so much stuffing around in post. Now I know how to take care of it as do probably most people on this thread, sure put a Red Rocket in the mix and you're away. Of course being an Epic owner I defended the Epic saying it's a great camera it's just a little misunderstood.

BUT guys I'm telling you, people turn there noses up at the Epic for this very reason. You need to open up transcoding to GPUs and you need to come up with a module for ProRes that doesn't cost $13K and can go higher than 60fps.

The Sony's F55 with Dual record and no rolling shutter effect is looking very impressive and I urge you guys to take notice.
Click to expand...
 
Adam Watson said:
I asked a question last friday and was amazed that not only did no one know the answer, but nobody, not even a poster with over 13,000 posts, knew what I was talking about.

My question was, is Red addressing in any way the issue of the sensor size and how it's too big for some lenses, some of them very popular?

-Angenieux Optino DP 16-42's and 30-80, a couple of our most popular lenses, didn't fit physically in the Epic because the lens mount is too shallow. Angenieux will modify them but for a price.

That's the only one I remember off the top of my head that just didn't fit physically when it should have, but here is a list of lenses we carry that vignette on the Epic.
-Angenieux 20-120
-Zeiss Variprime 16-30
-Angenieux 25-250

So I'm wondering how many more of our lenses won't work on the Dragon due to vignetting, or if Red is planning to remedy this somehow. Thank you.

EDIT: typo
Click to expand...


Well this poster with over 13,000 posts still thinks you're a bit mixed up. The sensor size, especially with it being "too big" doesn't have anything to do with the 1st generation Optimo DP lenses, or others, not fitting. Your previous post read as if you were attempting to have lenses modified to provide larger coverage circles. I know I wasn't the only one left scratching my head.

In regards to the EPIC and the DP's, the rear flange component was not a proper fit with the more narrow "throat" of the EPIC. Yes, some lenses do have that issue, but they also have that issue with some of the other newer digital cinema cameras. Many older lenses especially. The updated, or revised and currently shipping (for a couple years now) versions of the Optimo DP lenses don't have this issue. As you point out, Angenieux will update them to the current design for a price. The V2 modification was actually released before EPIC, IIRC. I'm not sure how privy they were to pre-release EPIC cameras, but like I pointed out, they had some issues on others. The F35, F65 and even the Alexa have had some issues mounting various lenses. No camera is perfect in that regard for some reason... I have owned both of the DP lenses in V1 form and now own the current form of the lenses.

As for the other lenses you mention above, I haven't seen or touched a 20-120 or any of the Variprimes in ages. I've had the Angie 25-250 on the RED One a couple times and no issues, have not worked with it on the EPIC, but I could see where it may run into the same issue of the narrow gullet in EPIC's lens well.

The IB/E Null system for setting your FFD also has this issue. AbelCine performs a modification to make it work -- they trim off part of the rear flange housing. I keep hoping they and IB/E will release a proper rear flange housing for the Null lens at some point instead of this kludge, although perfectly acceptable, solution. Once again, EPIC isn't the only camera that can't mount the Null without modification.
 
I was in the same boat Adam. I ended up buying my own Rocket so that I can transcode all of the footage into 1080 files for their online. It's frustrating when you're turned down for a job because they are doing post in-house.

I do wish that the footage was friendlier for smaller production companies who may not own a Rocket. For RED's benefit, not mine.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
BTW, why is wavelet decompression not a GPU task?
Click to expand...

Because, as much as people refuse to believe it, wavelet decoding is not a task that lends itself to, or is truly benefited by, GPU processing. It also doesn't help when we have a number of "back-seat developers" who like to dredge up stuff via Google or whatever and they stumble across one very popular paper about wavelet decoding being done on a common GPU. It is an unfortunate paper that seems to give more false hopes and assumptions to people than anything else. Yes, it's being done, yes it can be done. It's being done at a level of compression that is not on par with what R3D is doing. The performance, even in that paper's example, is terrible when compared to what larger CPUs are doing.

It's a matter of using the right tool for the job. For now, the best tools for wavelet decoding are CPUs. Or dedicated wavelet-decoding processors in the form of the RED Rocket card, as an example. These days, GPUs are the rockstars of the computing world. People think they can do anything, but the real truth is they're quite shallow and and don't perform when stretched beyond the scope of their talent. If GPUs were the miracle computing device most people make them out to be, we would have ditched our desktop and workstation CPUs long ago in favor of nVidia Fermi and Kepler processors.

That said, I'm sure there's quite a bit of optimization and performance still to be had with R3D decoding on CPUs. And possibly with some level of GPU-assist. At the rate that R3D continues to improve and evolve, along with the new sensors like MX, now Dragon, I'm not so sure they have had the time and resources to fully dive into concentrating on ultra-optimization of their algorithms. I'm only speculating here, but typically premature optimization can be the death of many great software concepts.
 
With all the talk about workflow/transcoding concerns for current and future RED dragon cameras, maybe we should start a new thread dedicated to that so it doesn't get buried in here and so RED can see that there is a wide valid concern among many of us about the need of a more streamlined, more affordable, and faster R3D workflow solution for the "non RED geeks". (I know it's not a problem for us RED geeks...but for the rest of the less techie and savy world it certainly is) ;)
 
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