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Sanjin Jukic
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Nick Gardner
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Lebanon ;-)
Steve Gibby
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Nick,
For non-hardlined EFP production - edited in postproductions for television, business, etc. - RED One has been used widely - and I fully expect Epic to be used even more widely due to its smaller size and modularity. Additionally, the post workflow are seriously improving as RED puts a lot of attention to that.
I've owned multiple RED One cameras and extensively used them for 16 months now - and about 85% of that use has been non-hardlined EFP production and/or hybrid EFP-cine style production. I think a misconception among straight cine style shooters is that EFP production is only done in 2k using B4 2/3" HD zooms. With RED One that is far from accurate. In all of my crew's non-hardlined production with RED One we have only used B4 2/3" HD zooms on a few productions, with the giant portion of the productions we've done being what I've termed "hybrid EFP/cine" production. – using cine and 35mm stills lenses, a minimum of accessories, sight focusing, and using EFP camera techniques.
In a non-union environment, with open minded crew, hybrid production is a reality. In this hybrid approach we're analyzing each production closely, then matching the lenses, accessories, and field production needs to that production. Most times this entails a mixed use of EFP, 35mm stills, and cine lenses, accessories, and shooting styles - a mix/match situation.
For example, when extreme mobility is needed, heavy and bulky accessories (matte box, FF, etc.) are skipped, and we opt to sight focus using lighter 35mm stills lenses. If we get to a more stationary location we may add the MB and FF back in, either with 35mm stills lenses or more often with cine lenses. Myself and my crewmembers switch all day long between camera techniques that are used in all three imaging disciplines: cine, EFP, and stills. 95% 0f our focusing with RED One has been sight focusing (no A/C on the crews), originally using 2:1 image magnification, then later (and much easier) using 1:1 image magnification. We occasionally do straight cine setups and traditional focusing. It just depends on the needs of the production, or a portion thereof. This kind of hybrid EFP/cine production requires broad skill sets and open minds. You'll never see it on union sets or on certain types of large productions. It is on non-union, medium to small crew situations, with open minded, broad skill set crews that you will find it. The mantra is "Maximize technology - while minimizing expense".
For audio we were opting to use a small line mixer on the cameras, but with the new audio upgrades we can go directly to the cameras, with very good results.
For mobile lighting when needed we use small lights (Litepanels) on stands and on camera, and Flexfills as necessary.
Don't assume that the end result is un-cinematic. Just the opposite, we stress getting cinematic footage whenever time and budget will allow - and when it is the best choice for a particular production or portion thereof.
Brook and Matt are friends of mine and I respect their professional opinions. That said, we don't always agree on camera usage, ergonomics, etc., and that's fine. I invited both of them to be members of our L.A. RED Test team a year ago because of that - they know their stuff and could bring good skills and diversity to the team. Last year I also supplied one of my RED cameras and worked on the crew with Matt on you guessed it – some commercial spots.
I did the first published interview with Jim Jannard about RED One (Studio Monthly, 3/06), in which Jim affirmed the added EFP use for RED One. Stuart English has reiterated RED One's EFP usage multiple times on this board since then. The DSMC philosophy behind Epic and Scarlet is the next incarnation of modularity, scalability, and flexibility of usage for RED cameras. Accessorize and lens them for each particular production you're doing, and then change your techniques to maximize your work on that project, or portion of it.
Me and my crews have found it quite easy to do non-hardlined EFP production with RED One - and look forward to it being even easier with the DSMC concept cameras. To each their own with these cameras - and that is the beauty of their design.
Of all the converging industries IMO it is the cine-style people who are having the hardest time wrapping their heads around the concept of convergence and broad utility. Some of that is ego for them supposedly being at the top of the food chain, but IMO it also centers on union tendency to compartmentalize job descriptions, the byproduct of which is workers with narrow skill sets that run vertical rather than horizontal. In the non-union environment crews tend to broaden skill sets and learn to be able to work in a wide range of job classifications. I've been a member of two unions in this industry, and it taught me that I wanted to center my career on non-union work, so I could learn to be everything from a grip/production assistant, and each job up to executive producer - and I've done that. That way I could be free to maximize technology and grow professionally. I hear the "jack of all trades, master of none" analogy retorted sometimes, but I've worked hard for 3 decades to be a "jack of all trades, and a master of most of them". Its a lot of constant work, but it can be done - in a non-union environment that is.
The opposite of a Jack of all Trades" is too often a specialist. The definition of a specialist is often "someone who learns more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing!"
The concepts behind RED One, Epic, and Scarlet can fit perfectly into either the union environment or the non-union environment, depending on your needs. It’s the best of all worlds for everyone.
If RED wants to sell camera systems, and I'm assuming they don't want to be a non-profit organization, then the tip of the sales iceberg is the pure cine-style production industry - while the other nine tenths of the potential sales berg that is lurking beneath the water is the combined EFP and digital stills industries. Thus RED’s stress on the extreme modularity, scalability, and resultant flexibility of the DSMC line of camera systems. The more fiscally strong RED is, the better for all of RED camera owners and users. That way they can continue to serve our needs looking forward.
We're all family here. Nobody should take offense at my comments. I work in all three industries RED is marketing to: cine-style, EFP style, and digital stills. I applaud RED for their advances and concepts - and for listening to everyone while the cameras are in development.
Peace…good shooting to everyone...
For non-hardlined EFP production - edited in postproductions for television, business, etc. - RED One has been used widely - and I fully expect Epic to be used even more widely due to its smaller size and modularity. Additionally, the post workflow are seriously improving as RED puts a lot of attention to that.
I've owned multiple RED One cameras and extensively used them for 16 months now - and about 85% of that use has been non-hardlined EFP production and/or hybrid EFP-cine style production. I think a misconception among straight cine style shooters is that EFP production is only done in 2k using B4 2/3" HD zooms. With RED One that is far from accurate. In all of my crew's non-hardlined production with RED One we have only used B4 2/3" HD zooms on a few productions, with the giant portion of the productions we've done being what I've termed "hybrid EFP/cine" production. – using cine and 35mm stills lenses, a minimum of accessories, sight focusing, and using EFP camera techniques.
In a non-union environment, with open minded crew, hybrid production is a reality. In this hybrid approach we're analyzing each production closely, then matching the lenses, accessories, and field production needs to that production. Most times this entails a mixed use of EFP, 35mm stills, and cine lenses, accessories, and shooting styles - a mix/match situation.
For example, when extreme mobility is needed, heavy and bulky accessories (matte box, FF, etc.) are skipped, and we opt to sight focus using lighter 35mm stills lenses. If we get to a more stationary location we may add the MB and FF back in, either with 35mm stills lenses or more often with cine lenses. Myself and my crewmembers switch all day long between camera techniques that are used in all three imaging disciplines: cine, EFP, and stills. 95% 0f our focusing with RED One has been sight focusing (no A/C on the crews), originally using 2:1 image magnification, then later (and much easier) using 1:1 image magnification. We occasionally do straight cine setups and traditional focusing. It just depends on the needs of the production, or a portion thereof. This kind of hybrid EFP/cine production requires broad skill sets and open minds. You'll never see it on union sets or on certain types of large productions. It is on non-union, medium to small crew situations, with open minded, broad skill set crews that you will find it. The mantra is "Maximize technology - while minimizing expense".
For audio we were opting to use a small line mixer on the cameras, but with the new audio upgrades we can go directly to the cameras, with very good results.
For mobile lighting when needed we use small lights (Litepanels) on stands and on camera, and Flexfills as necessary.
Don't assume that the end result is un-cinematic. Just the opposite, we stress getting cinematic footage whenever time and budget will allow - and when it is the best choice for a particular production or portion thereof.
Brook and Matt are friends of mine and I respect their professional opinions. That said, we don't always agree on camera usage, ergonomics, etc., and that's fine. I invited both of them to be members of our L.A. RED Test team a year ago because of that - they know their stuff and could bring good skills and diversity to the team. Last year I also supplied one of my RED cameras and worked on the crew with Matt on you guessed it – some commercial spots.
I did the first published interview with Jim Jannard about RED One (Studio Monthly, 3/06), in which Jim affirmed the added EFP use for RED One. Stuart English has reiterated RED One's EFP usage multiple times on this board since then. The DSMC philosophy behind Epic and Scarlet is the next incarnation of modularity, scalability, and flexibility of usage for RED cameras. Accessorize and lens them for each particular production you're doing, and then change your techniques to maximize your work on that project, or portion of it.
Me and my crews have found it quite easy to do non-hardlined EFP production with RED One - and look forward to it being even easier with the DSMC concept cameras. To each their own with these cameras - and that is the beauty of their design.
Of all the converging industries IMO it is the cine-style people who are having the hardest time wrapping their heads around the concept of convergence and broad utility. Some of that is ego for them supposedly being at the top of the food chain, but IMO it also centers on union tendency to compartmentalize job descriptions, the byproduct of which is workers with narrow skill sets that run vertical rather than horizontal. In the non-union environment crews tend to broaden skill sets and learn to be able to work in a wide range of job classifications. I've been a member of two unions in this industry, and it taught me that I wanted to center my career on non-union work, so I could learn to be everything from a grip/production assistant, and each job up to executive producer - and I've done that. That way I could be free to maximize technology and grow professionally. I hear the "jack of all trades, master of none" analogy retorted sometimes, but I've worked hard for 3 decades to be a "jack of all trades, and a master of most of them". Its a lot of constant work, but it can be done - in a non-union environment that is.
The opposite of a Jack of all Trades" is too often a specialist. The definition of a specialist is often "someone who learns more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing!"
The concepts behind RED One, Epic, and Scarlet can fit perfectly into either the union environment or the non-union environment, depending on your needs. It’s the best of all worlds for everyone.
If RED wants to sell camera systems, and I'm assuming they don't want to be a non-profit organization, then the tip of the sales iceberg is the pure cine-style production industry - while the other nine tenths of the potential sales berg that is lurking beneath the water is the combined EFP and digital stills industries. Thus RED’s stress on the extreme modularity, scalability, and resultant flexibility of the DSMC line of camera systems. The more fiscally strong RED is, the better for all of RED camera owners and users. That way they can continue to serve our needs looking forward.
We're all family here. Nobody should take offense at my comments. I work in all three industries RED is marketing to: cine-style, EFP style, and digital stills. I applaud RED for their advances and concepts - and for listening to everyone while the cameras are in development.
Peace…good shooting to everyone...
Jannard
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This is an EPIC S35 Brain in shoulder config. I guess the goal is that you can make these guys just about anything you want and need. We assume that just about everyone will have a different opinion as to how they should be configured.
Jim
Same Brain in a different configuration (old battery box).
Jim
Same Brain in a different configuration (old battery box).
Scott Webster
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It's all common production accessories.
CineTape
Preston MDR
AJA Downconverter
SD Video Transmitter
Denecke Timecode box (or similar)
The Keslow box looks like a power splitter.
You can usually find a radio mic for guide track.
To put it in perspective, check out Charles Paperts F35 handheld rig at dvinfo
JanneJansson
Well-known member
cool, batt shiny too now
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Very cool renders Jim. Thanks for those...
My crews will be using an Epic configuration like you have in the top render for about 90% of our shoulder held needs - in hybrid EFP/cine style.
The second configuration render is more of a setup for how my crews will work when we're on tripod and/or shooting in a more cine style.
The great thing is that we can shoot quick stills with either of those configurations if needed, or if we're changing to a lot of dedicated stills work, just quickly strip down the camera and re-accessorize and re-lens (if wanted/needed) the camera for the stills work.
I'm definitely liking the modularity and flexibility of the new Epic and Scarlet designs - just accessorize and lens the cameras for what you need for each production or portion thereof.
My crews will be using an Epic configuration like you have in the top render for about 90% of our shoulder held needs - in hybrid EFP/cine style.
The second configuration render is more of a setup for how my crews will work when we're on tripod and/or shooting in a more cine style.
The great thing is that we can shoot quick stills with either of those configurations if needed, or if we're changing to a lot of dedicated stills work, just quickly strip down the camera and re-accessorize and re-lens (if wanted/needed) the camera for the stills work.
I'm definitely liking the modularity and flexibility of the new Epic and Scarlet designs - just accessorize and lens the cameras for what you need for each production or portion thereof.
This is an EPIC S35 Brain in shoulder config. I guess the goal is that you can make these guys just about anything you want and need. We assume that just about everyone will have a different opinion as to how they should be configured.
Jim
Same Brain in a different configuration (old battery box).
Nigel Stanford
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Can we get digital audio inputs? Then the sound dept guy can run a cable to the camera, but remains in control of the gain and has their own a/d converters. As you say, they'll never be happy with converters on the camera. It doesn't matter who makes them, they won't want to give up any kind of control.
The ideal audio module would have four XLR's, switchable to analog or digital.
Or alternativly 2 analog and 2 digital. I'd be happy with just the four digital.
Someone mentioned a MADI input but that's just descending into madness
It's all common production accessories.
CineTape
Preston MDR
AJA Downconverter
SD Video Transmitter
Denecke Timecode box (or similar)
The Keslow box looks like a power splitter.
You can usually find a radio mic for guide track.
To put it in perspective, check out Charles Paperts F35 handheld rig at dvinfo
Some thoughts:
The Preston MDR is way bigger than it really should be. People use Preston's because they already own them and trust them. I can't possibly see how Red can or should design around a Preston. It just is what it is.
Downconverter/SD transmitter is rapidly going to become archaic. Again, I would like to NOT see Red design around something that will be replaced soon by an HD digital transmitter. Again, it won't be long before those are small.
Timecode box: none of the shows I've been on use the timecode box on the camera all the time. We jam at the beginning of the day and at lunch.
If you want Cinetape, MDR, TC box on the camera, there's no way you're not going to have tons of cables. Red can't do anything about the cables from the MDR to lens motors, etc.
Everyone puts these boxes in different places for different configs. I can't possibly see how one can design that into a product while making some people happy and others very unhappy. That's what rails and mounting holes are for.
If anything, we should pressure Preston, Cinetape, AJA, Ambient, and Deneke to buld smaller, better products.
It's clear that Red is selling these cameras at lower price because it's targeted at a larger market. If they focus on a smaller market even for Epic, then inevitably the volume goes down and the price will go up. Epic is ridiculously cheap for what it is. Don't ask to make it twice as expensive because you can't see the big picture!
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Brook Willard
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Yes Gibby, I am referring to my strictly cine-style, large crew, union setups.
You got it:
Non-RED onboard batteries.
Non-RED block batteries.
XLR to MC8 adapters.
Preston MDR plus motors.
AJA Downconverter.
Ambient Lockit Box.
Denecke SB-T.
CineTape horn & display.
Lens Light.
Modulus Transmitter.
CanaTrans Transmitter.
MicroForce controller.
Because of the nonstandard nature of the connectors on the RED ONE, those are all adapted with the following accessories:
Fisher 3-pin breakout boxes.
RED 4-pin to Fisher 3-pin adapters.
Mini-XLR to XLR adapters.
Mini-BNC to BNC breakout boxes.
Outboard voltage meters.
Non-RED rod adapters, cheese plates, handles and brackets.
Since we can't anticipate everything someone will plug into the camera, it doesn't make much sense to throw a bunch of random cables in our renders... and screw up the "elegance".
To some extent, however, you can make those predictions. If there is no SD output on the camera, people will mount a downconverter. If there are no unregulated 3-pin Fisher power outputs, people will mount Fisher [or P-tap] breakout boxes. If the camera can't read standard voltage, people will mount voltage meters or backup batteries. If the camera's timecode functions like the RED ONE's does, people will mount a timecode generator.
The Epic has come a long way with real BNC connectors, a faster boot time, etc... and I'm really excited about it. But a lot of those accessories are band-aids to make the RED ONE interface with decades worth of standard accessories that aren't going away anytime soon.
Remember that angled breakout box you guys designed for the older Epic body? That angled all the ports properly? Don't forget about that one!
Even without all of that, you can always anticipate that people will need to mount things like a Preston MDR, lens light, Modulus/Canatrans/HDtrans, CineTape, etc. They're all standard accessories that get used every day in the cinema crowd... and we'll use them on the Epic in the same way that we use them on the RED ONE and film cameras.
Now's the time to start thinking about ways to power and mount these boxes.
The module idea you guys are using is fantastic... but consider taking it a step further. You're making some awesome modules so far... but many people will still use the same modules [battery module, port module] for 90% of their work. Those people won't all do the same kind of work, however. Why not get more specialized with the modules?
Make a Steve Gibby ENG/EFP module. Make a Brook Willard Cinema module. Make a Matt Uhry get-the-sound-department-away-from-me module. Same camera... different accessory.
I'm all about using this camera in different fields... that's part of the beauty of it. With specialized modules, the "jack of all trades, master of none" fears can disappear.
I really urge you to consider a specialized "Cinema Module" that covers a lot of these points. Let me know if you want me to open up that can of worms... I've got tons of ideas and drawings to share.
Dylan Macleod CSC
Well-known member
This is an EPIC S35 Brain in shoulder config. I guess the goal is that you can make these guys just about anything you want and need. We assume that just about everyone will have a different opinion as to how they should be configured.
Jim
Same Brain in a different configuration (old battery box).
So the only cable is to the viewfinder?
None to the drive or battery power?
Cool!
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Jeff Kilgroe
Well-known member
Current RED Drives will obviously need a cable. So will any battery plates. If you go with the configuration that has the battery module holding 2 or 3 of the RED 12V blocks, then the module connects directly, so no extra cable. The media modules like the the dual CF module or the RED MAG module obviously don't need cables.
Then again... You will need cables from the brain to any module or bank of modules located "off camera".
Brook is right that we shouldn't forget that many of us will have lots of crap stacked onto or connected to these cameras. But that goes for any camera. As for Brook's example pics above, especially the middle of 5 pictures, a few minutes of good cable management would help that a lot. Yes there's a lot of crap on those camera... No, it doesn't need to look like that. Damn...
Then again... You will need cables from the brain to any module or bank of modules located "off camera".
Brook is right that we shouldn't forget that many of us will have lots of crap stacked onto or connected to these cameras. But that goes for any camera. As for Brook's example pics above, especially the middle of 5 pictures, a few minutes of good cable management would help that a lot. Yes there's a lot of crap on those camera... No, it doesn't need to look like that. Damn...
JanneJansson
Well-known member
Remember that angled breakout box you guys designed for the older Epic body? That angled all the ports properly? Don't forget about that one!
Yes that design was very good, and I think that will work best so far for cine setups.
Sanjin Jukic
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RED could offer rendering(s) with a man figure in handheld pose that we could see better what is going on with ergonomics.
I'm not good in 3D and at the below picture is one example that's maybe is not 100% accurate but give you an idea how could be made.
I'm not good in 3D and at the below picture is one example that's maybe is not 100% accurate but give you an idea how could be made.
David J Bernstein
Active member
There's that RED matte box again! Is it ever going to be reality? Or must we just drool over our laptops?
Stuart English
Red Team
What are all of those cables?
What are all of those cables?
Thank you for the information Brook.
Just be careful throwing around the "band aid" comments though - it doesn't help the conversation along...
What are all of those cables?
Thank you for the information Brook.
Just be careful throwing around the "band aid" comments though - it doesn't help the conversation along...
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Pawel Achtel
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Thanks Brook for pictures of those beautiful Christmas decorations. :w00t:
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Brook Willard
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Agh, point taken, I didn't mean to offend with my rather poor choice of words... sorry about that. I meant it not so much as a shot against the camera's design as a star on the point that people will still need to use their standards-based accessories... even if those standards aren't built into the camera.
So band-aid is definitely the wrong word from a conversational perspective [and my apologies for the way it came across]... but from a functional perspective that's exactly what it is. It's adapting a nonstandard connector to a standard one... "fixing" something that was "broken". It's adapting a "film cable" to "that RED port". It's "fixing" the "broken" timecode functionality. It's adding "real" battery meters instead of "the RED one". It's bypassing the onboard power output so the 1.5A breaker doesn't trip and kill the camera when I have an older sticky zoom on with an analog motor.
I don't talk like that - I wouldn't go around spewing venom about the cameras - but that's what I hear when I'm working with camera assistants. It's rarely an "ok, I'll just buy a new FIZ cable"... usually more of a "why didn't they just use standard cables?".
Breakout boxes, downconverters, adapter cables and voltage meters all work just fine... but it'd be infinitely nicer if these functions were built into a specific module.
The shot of Charles's F35 is a perfect example of what people have to go through to make digital cameras function in a cinema environment. They just aren't designed by cinema people. You guys have really done a very good job all things considered - definitely better than most. Considering the RED ONE was your first try, it's pretty damned amazing. But I love to strive for perfection. It's not like you're the only offender... it's just that you're the only one listening.
I've seen so many ACs try to jam a 3-pin Fisher into the 4-pin LEMO on the back of the camera, only to look into the plugs, mutter something I won't repeat here and call for a prep tech.
I absolutely understand that my own personal design needs [which are essentially a combination of the design requests of dozens of camera assistants in LA] aren't for everybody. By the same token, I'm sure Steve has some design points he'd love to see that would send shivers down my spine. That's why I'm so excited about this module idea.
If there was a real "Cinema Module" that was designed from the ground up to function as though it were a film camera on steroids... oh man. It would be huge. It wouldn't be for everybody... but it would be at every film-style rental house and every camera assistant would just love you guys for it.
Email me for thoughts.
So band-aid is definitely the wrong word from a conversational perspective [and my apologies for the way it came across]... but from a functional perspective that's exactly what it is. It's adapting a nonstandard connector to a standard one... "fixing" something that was "broken". It's adapting a "film cable" to "that RED port". It's "fixing" the "broken" timecode functionality. It's adding "real" battery meters instead of "the RED one". It's bypassing the onboard power output so the 1.5A breaker doesn't trip and kill the camera when I have an older sticky zoom on with an analog motor.
I don't talk like that - I wouldn't go around spewing venom about the cameras - but that's what I hear when I'm working with camera assistants. It's rarely an "ok, I'll just buy a new FIZ cable"... usually more of a "why didn't they just use standard cables?".
Breakout boxes, downconverters, adapter cables and voltage meters all work just fine... but it'd be infinitely nicer if these functions were built into a specific module.
The shot of Charles's F35 is a perfect example of what people have to go through to make digital cameras function in a cinema environment. They just aren't designed by cinema people. You guys have really done a very good job all things considered - definitely better than most. Considering the RED ONE was your first try, it's pretty damned amazing. But I love to strive for perfection. It's not like you're the only offender... it's just that you're the only one listening.
I've seen so many ACs try to jam a 3-pin Fisher into the 4-pin LEMO on the back of the camera, only to look into the plugs, mutter something I won't repeat here and call for a prep tech.
I absolutely understand that my own personal design needs [which are essentially a combination of the design requests of dozens of camera assistants in LA] aren't for everybody. By the same token, I'm sure Steve has some design points he'd love to see that would send shivers down my spine. That's why I'm so excited about this module idea.
If there was a real "Cinema Module" that was designed from the ground up to function as though it were a film camera on steroids... oh man. It would be huge. It wouldn't be for everybody... but it would be at every film-style rental house and every camera assistant would just love you guys for it.
Email me for thoughts.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
You'd think that with so many shows sticking a downconverter, Modulus transmitter, Cinetape, Lockit box, etc. that some of these elements would be more commonly designed to work together rather than be velcro'd onto cameras haphazardly. The problem isn't the RED design approach either because most 35mm movie cameras resemble Frankenstein's monster by the time everyone is done sticking their add-ons...
Of course, I look forward to the day when downconversions to SD would be unnecessary on a movie set and every department, the sound cart, video village, Steadicam, etc. would be watching on HD monitors, big & small. But it would have to be easily transmitted when necessary.
Seems like the function of a Lockit box should start being part of a basic camera's design.
Of course, I look forward to the day when downconversions to SD would be unnecessary on a movie set and every department, the sound cart, video village, Steadicam, etc. would be watching on HD monitors, big & small. But it would have to be easily transmitted when necessary.
Seems like the function of a Lockit box should start being part of a basic camera's design.