Don't forget...

[Evin Grant]

With Epic you have a chance to really focus the modules to their specific uses. A cinema module would ideally fit behind the current IO module and offer SD downconversion and a TC Word clock capable of dirf-less jamming to an external source, basically an Ambient or Dencke lockit box built in. This would eliminate two of Brook's add on boxes and at least six cables. Also some three pin Lemo connectors with unregulated power for the MDR, Microforce and Cineteape would be swell. You already have the full size XLRs rocking so it wouldn't take much more to get you there. Also this Cine module doesn't have to be indy cheap. Both the Downconverter and Lockit box cost $1000 each so it would stand to reason that this module would be more than those two combined. This is one area where the modular design makes enormous sense.

 

[Brook Willard]

Not 3-pin LEMO, 3-pin Fisher. Very different...

I'd like to have the HD-SDI, composite and audio ports integrated into the Cinema Module... along with a bunch of other things as well. Evin's on the right track with the downconverter and lockit box, however.

It's not just about the ports on the box, it's also about the shape of the box, where the ports point, what ports are guarded by, etc.

If you guys became friends with Preston, you could even have a Cinema Module with a built-in MDR a la how Arri builds the LCS into certain camera bodies.

Unrelated to the Cinema Module, I think it'd be awesome to either split the Port Module in half [one for audio, one for HD-SDI] or offer two additional but separate units that do the same thing.

The wheels are spinning over here.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Seems like the function of a Lockit box should start being part of a basic camera's design.

Yeah, that might be an opportunity for RED to add some more value relatively easily. Maybe even wireless sync between cameras built in... syncing back to a master timecode slate RED could make and sell. Slick.

Also, I like the idea of XLR and BNC connectors pointing down at 45 or 90 degrees. The Digital audio input idea is good too. Why not just knock it out of the park when it comes to audio this time. External gain controls and the ability to send one audio input to multiple tracks with different gain settings would be nice too. Typical ENG feature, but not on RED so far.

Anyway, the whole modular thing does allow RED to get into any accessory business they want to. It's a very cool design.

 

[Evin Grant]

Not 3-pin LEMO, 3-pin Fisher. Very different...

Duhh,:wacko: Fisher, sorry I'm typing too fast.

 

[Brook Willard]

I'm reminded again of Matt Uhry's audio idea from a few months ago. His idea was to have a big port on the camera designed by Location Sound, Coffey or Sound Devices. Let them design the specs and just build a port. Ship a thousand connectors to all of the companies before the cameras ship. That way everybody could build their own cables, transmitters, etc... without needing to take up real estate on the camera. Some units could have pots built in, some could have mini XLRs, some could have full XLRs, some would just have timecode, etc.

But now - with the module idea - why not call up those companies [which would instantly give people faith in the audio quality of the products] and co-design a bunch of modules? A mini-XLR module, a full-sized XLR module with pots and phantom power, a digital audio module, a transmitter/receiver module [!!!!!], a Denecke-designed timecode module, etc.

The possibilities are endless and it'd keep the sound guys out of our hair when we don't want them around. Those sound guys and their sound ways will be the death of us!

But - at the same time - those who run in the ENG/EFP world could just buy a particular module and strap a microphone to the camera. Problem: solved.

Epic body, Cinema Module with MDR and composite-out, Denecke Timecode Module, Audio Transceiver Module, Battery Module... and some storage on the back.

I'll take three.

 

[Kenn Michael]

I'm REALLY liking this idea of a Cinema module (along with other specialty modules for different shooting disciplines).

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

It would be really great that 3rd parties or Red themselves built the components that we need mostly on this kind of shoots.

TC receiver, transmitter in a module, different kind of audio modules, maby one with a MADI i/o connector (giving us the feature transporting 64ch i / o at once, even if we need much less, so audio could be recorded with good preamps, split up with a madi bridge and then sent over wherever where it's needed.
, efp broadcast module, even the ability to have onboard audio receivers built into the body would be really nice and if Red wants to coörperate with 3rd parties this could be easily done and everybody could get a piece of the pie.

 

[Deanan]

If you guys became friends with Preston, you could even have a Cinema Module with a built-in MDR a la how Arri builds the LCS into certain camera bodies.

Seriously, how many 1st's are going to buy an EPIC specific Preston MDR. Especially at the low quantities that Preston needs to make them, the cost would be way more than a Scarlet brain. Then factor in that Preston does not dominate the market globally.

Most of these accessories are piled on outside the camera because that separates the cost from a particular camera model/brand. Putting them into a camera system doesn't always make sense.

Putting analog SD downconversion on 5k camera is really not solving a problem or motivating the industry to solve the problem properly. There is a huge motivation for 3rd parties to provide wireless HD now and not just because of Red. There will many more solutions coming out before Epic does.

 

[jaadgy akanni]

I get tired of the LA feature guys thinking the world works like they do. We DONT.

We also don't want $200k cameras because the cameras were designed for a myopic segment of the image making population.

I agree. And another annoying things is that underlying message I can read between the lines, saying "RED, be more like ARRI and them...design this camera so that we can approach its shortcomings in exactly the same way we approach the shortcomings of Arri and them"
The day that happens, is the day I lose respect for Jim.

 

[Evin Grant]

This is not mostly feature work, it's commercial, music video, episodic TV, high budget web/new media. Basically anything that would have shot on an F900 or 35mm two years ago. All these add on gadgets really add up to one thing....

....Time.

The easier to use and more reliable a system is the faster you can change setups and the more content you can produce in a given shooting day. That is exactly why the Red One is dominating production in LA right now. But we think Epic can do even better and this is the place to let that be known. In the end this is not about snobby LA types it's about speed and that equals money. It just so happens that the most money is spent here and that means we need the most amount of speed and the highest level of functionality.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Eliminating the lockit box seems like the lowest hanging fruit... and something everyone could probably agree on.

If RED either got timecode up to lockit box level (persistent for a whole day through battery changes etc), or added a little module with "timecode by Ambient" (or Denecke) printed on the side of it (like my Sound Devices recorder does), I'm sure the pros would pay for it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Stuart English]

Connectors etc

Connectors etc

So band-aid is definitely the wrong word from a conversational perspective [and my apologies for the way it came across]... but from a functional perspective that's exactly what it is. It's adapting a nonstandard connector to a standard one... "fixing" something that was "broken". It's adapting a "film cable" to "that RED port". It's "fixing" the "broken" timecode functionality. It's adding "real" battery meters instead of "the RED one". It's bypassing the onboard power output so the 1.5A breaker doesn't trip and kill the camera when I have an older sticky zoom on with an analog motor.

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

You all might be right that it's way cheaper to use velcro and pick the items we prefer.

But as with the r1 we've seen some dramatic changes over time due to suggestions and ideas and feedback from some real professionals, it couldn't do any harm if Red digged deeper into this subject and sees what could be a real win-win situation to push the design into the limits...

My strongest wish is mostly regarding the audio , that I'd like to see the Madi option jump in because it would reduce cabling and it's stronger then adat.
or otherwise the aes done on multicable with some breakoutbox. but also give us the option to put receivers and analog signals onto the camera itself.

I suppose it might be good to look at some good wireless audio manufacturers and see what's possible to have it onboard and implemented into the body or make some inbetween modular piece, where we could let it fit it, that we're not forced to put it on the side.

 

[Brook Willard]

Seriously, how many 1st's are going to buy an EPIC specific Preston MDR.

Nobody, that was more of a pipe dream. Just rattling off idea after idea and I got too excited.

You're also right that having all those companies build components is unreasonable to coordinate. I think the point I was trying to make is still there, though... even if they don't build them, having a few additional specific modules would be great for their separate markets and functions.

This thread started as a "don't forget to give us places to bolt stuff!" idea and has turned into a "holy crap, let's make some really cool accessories!" braindump. Most of the ideas I've rattled off are unreasonable... but I think a few [namely the Cinema Module] could be pretty awesome...

I get tired of the LA feature guys thinking the world works like they do. We DONT.

We also don't want $200k cameras because the cameras were designed for a myopic segment of the image making population.

Your point is perfectly taken - that's why I think that it should be a module/accessory idea for the fairly limited cinema crowd instead of a complete body reworking. I'm more talking about new accessories here... not redesign of the camera. The body is fantastic as it stands.

So you can have the camera exactly as you want it... and we can have it how we want it! That way everybody wins. That's why this modularity idea RED is using has so much potential.

Absolutely brilliant naiveté!
What standard?
Before Red came along, I already had a separate case dedicated to special cables adapting from this or that camera.

Exactly! That's why I was using quotes. There is no "standard" - that's why every FIZ you rent has about 9 power cables. That said, there are some power connectors that are more common than others. Arri uses certain connectors, Panavision uses certain connectors, etc. The 1.5A RED 4-pin LEMO is often not enough to run the MDR. I've just found that almost every MDR or CineTape or MicroForce will come out of the box with [among other things] a 3-pin Fisher connector [usually 11-17v]. Furthermore, just about every RED rental house in town has added a 3-pin Fisher breakout box to their cameras [while some have built pigtails from 4-pin LEMO to 3-pin Fisher and others have relied on P-tap breakout boxes].

Don't let Brook get you down Carsten -- He is not a feature guy in LA or beyond - he is just a punk kid that like's to point out how bad he thinks the red one camera is - He does not even own a camera - I cannot believe he made the point to correct his boss Evin and make Evin look like a dummy with the 3 pin correction in public just so Brook could look smarter.

I own a Preston package myself - and i am very happy to Rent that out to productions - I selfishly advise directly against what Brook is suggesting.

Lara, I don't believe we've ever worked together - I find it interesting that you take these shots against me. This is now the second time you've decided to call me out and personally attack me for my opinions... in 30 posts you've ever made.

You seem to think that you know a lot about me. Let's clarify a bit. Evin is not currently and has never been my boss. My correction on his Lemo vs. Fisher comment was just to prevent confusion. You are also very very mistaken about my experience and current projects.

So it is my desire for RED to make an additional accessory that is designed to interface with common cinema accessories. It would not detract from any other accessories... and it would not change the camera as we know it. I'm not completely sure how that offends you and your Preston, but I'll leave it at that.

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

Heheh, good point. I know that the way I write can sometimes be misconstrued as offensive or having subtext when I mean none. I'll try to phrase things in a way that comes across a little more nicely next time. But don't worry... I never mean offense when I write things like that. I just come across as harsh on paper. :innocent:

And in that particular quote of mine, the words I put in quotations aren't my own... they're just what I hear out of camera assistants' mouths. I would've phrased it in a much nicer and more neutral way otherwise.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I get tired of the LA feature guys thinking the world works like they do. We DONT.

We also don't want $200k cameras because the cameras were designed for a myopic segment of the image making population.

When a person from a particular industry wants to discuss particular design issues that will affect their work, why not respond likewise in discussing design issues that may affect your different type of work, rather than this equivalent of "oh, just shut up" sort of response?

Anyone wonder why there are so few "LA feature guys" that actually post on RedUser?

If RED has proven anything, it's that they aren't going to only make a $200,000 camera just to cater to high-end productions with deep pockets, so I don't get the hostility as if this was even a possible outcome of this discussion. If RED has proven anything, it is that they are open-minded when it comes to the ideas of customers.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Are established 3rd parties going to be allowed to make modules? Seems like that might be a really good idea, IMHO.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Agh, point taken, I didn't mean to offend with my rather poor choice of words... sorry about that. I meant it not so much as a shot against the camera's design as a star on the point that people will still need to use their standards-based accessories... even if those standards aren't built into the camera.

So band-aid is definitely the wrong word from a conversational perspective [and my apologies for the way it came across]... but from a functional perspective that's exactly what it is. It's adapting a nonstandard connector to a standard one... "fixing" something that was "broken". It's adapting a "film cable" to "that RED port". It's "fixing" the "broken" timecode functionality. It's adding "real" battery meters instead of "the RED one". It's bypassing the onboard power output so the 1.5A breaker doesn't trip and kill the camera when I have an older sticky zoom on with an analog motor.

I don't talk like that - I wouldn't go around spewing venom about the cameras - but that's what I hear when I'm working with camera assistants. It's rarely an "ok, I'll just buy a new FIZ cable"... usually more of a "why didn't they just use standard cables?".

Breakout boxes, downconverters, adapter cables and voltage meters all work just fine... but it'd be infinitely nicer if these functions were built into a specific module.

The shot of Charles's F35 is a perfect example of what people have to go through to make digital cameras function in a cinema environment. They just aren't designed by cinema people. You guys have really done a very good job all things considered - definitely better than most. Considering the RED ONE was your first try, it's pretty damned amazing. But I love to strive for perfection. It's not like you're the only offender... it's just that you're the only one listening.

I've seen so many ACs try to jam a 3-pin Fisher into the 4-pin LEMO on the back of the camera, only to look into the plugs, mutter something I won't repeat here and call for a prep tech.

I absolutely understand that my own personal design needs [which are essentially a combination of the design requests of dozens of camera assistants in LA] aren't for everybody. By the same token, I'm sure Steve has some design points he'd love to see that would send shivers down my spine. That's why I'm so excited about this module idea.

If there was a real "Cinema Module" that was designed from the ground up to function as though it were a film camera on steroids... oh man. It would be huge. It wouldn't be for everybody... but it would be at every film-style rental house and every camera assistant would just love you guys for it.

Email me for thoughts.

Brook you really need to take a look at ASL Gears new panel and breakout box.. Not sure you'd need the breakout box, but the panel would solve all needed adaptors for the ports you speak of.

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Brook, the above reminds me of conversations I've had with my wife Tina, who is Dutch.

Every now and again I wonder why she just doesn't SPEAK ENGLISH! ...... well her answer is, why haven't YOU learned to speak any DUTCH!

Maybe the more appropriate phrase you might be looking for is "adapt" or "translate"

Vriendelijke groeten,

Well Stuart I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my mom when a client wanted something different than we were selling. I said, "that guy's wrong!" My Mom replied "The customer is always right". I replied, "can't we get a different customer?" and she said "Sure! Then we earn BOTH their checks".

I THINK you guys know this.. I don't see any mini XLR's on Epic/Scarlet....
It would seem the new system has "adapted" as well.

Jay

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

@ Carsten,

You have made some valid points, but tone it down a notch or two. You're coming off a bit rude. I've already hit two rude posters with the ban hammer today and you're about to become number three.

 

[dino g]

i like to use the camera as designed.

i like to use the camera as designed.

i always try and find a way to get the gack off the camera...we do this as much as possible..modulus, aja, preston control box, stb...all in a backpack away from the camera...

i know many people try and fill their cameras with tons of gear to prove that they are working with a "professional" camera, but simplicity rules.

these are some shots of scott duncan, simon thirlaway and crash using red#0031 in a very scaled down configuration, with all of those "other" accessories, tucked away off the camera.

in all of these pictures, the only "third party" accessories on the camera are made by ET; the breakout box and the evf arm.

take the extra ten minutes in prep and make it sexy, gack in the back is what i say...

happy holidays.

enjoy,