Does anyone ever use Audio recorded in camera?

[Bob Gundu]

I certainly always try to get a dedicated sound guy. There are times where it's just a talking head situation and that I can handle it myself. Narrative stuff... no question... get a sound guy.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

I find it an utter waste of time, to sync my footage to audio.
We live in the 21st century, and it would be a yoke, if we should not be able to record the same quality in cameras than in a pro recorder.

Having said that,
I would never record in camera, without going trough a good mixer first, since I think it's the preamps that really make a difference not the recording part. Having an other cable hanging from my camera, doesn't really bother me - it's a spaghetti monster anyway.
And yeah, mics and a good sound guy/experienced boomer make a day and night difference IMHO.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I find it an utter waste of time, to sync my footage to audio.

I agree, if you're the writer / DOP / director. Hire an inexpensive assistant editor. That's what their job is.

I would never record in camera, without going trough a good mixer first, since I think it's the preamps that really make a difference not the recording part. Having an other cable hanging from my camera, doesn't really bother me - it's a spaghetti monster anyway. And yeah, mics and a good sound guy/experienced boomer make a day and night difference IMHO.

Absolutely. :thumbsup:

And again, the bigger issue is just having somebody monitor the audio 100% of the time, to make sure the interview subject is on mic, there's no clothing noise, there's no extraneous noise in the room, the levels are consistent, and so on. All of these issues are much, much harder to fix after the fact. Just "assuming" everything is fine because you can hear the guy in the room and the meters are bouncing is not enough.

Marc, I love all your posts, but I think you underestimate some of our budgets. Even with my clients being broadcast, you'd be shocked at how little they pay for quick "run and gun" shoots. When they're paying 5K for a crew to run out and shoot a bunch of interviews, come back, grade them, and deliver on a hard drive, it can be hard to stomach spending $650 to 1k on a top sound guy.

If it's one guy in a room for a couple of hours, there are sound people out there who can do it for less. How big a crew do you need to shoot a guy in a room? I must have done at least a hundred interview shoots where we had (at most) a four man crew, plus me.

If the audio turns out to be bad, then spending any amount of money to have avoided that problem would've been a better choice. Just having a backup of the audio is extremely valuable, since you're not risking the possibility of a bad connection going to camera.

 

[Josh Rosenfield]

For you guys recording on camera, can you share details and images of the signal flow / devices / inputs you are using? Are you using the PRO I/O module with XLR or the built-in front inputs?

The more info, the better! Cheers!

 

[Ryan Sauve]

Hey Josh, for my application (corporate), I do the following:

1. Interview: Lav mic (G3) to a splitter to split the signal going into a Zoom H6 (one channel is as close to clipping as possible without doing so but every now and then it clips, the other channel is between -6 and -12db less than the first channel and is to be used as a backup). Scratch audio out of the H6 line-out and into the Epic via a -40db padded 3.5mm audio cable. Sometimes the scratch is good enough (when none of the channels peak) but I usually still sync using PluralEyes so I can use the higher quality H6 wav files. I'm going to start adding a boom mic (Audix SCX1 for indoor and Rode NTG1 with wind sock for outdoor) going forward when logistically doable (costs, locations,...etc...) and hook up to an H4n using the same splitter/backup track method mentioned and sync in post with the scratch track.

2. Dramatization - Same lav setup for all actors (up to 4 since the XLR module in the H6 can have -12db backup tracks enabled) and the same boom configuration but with a boom operator to follow the action.

This works great for me but lav mic placement is paramount because I still get clothing noise every now and then. My actors are so awesome and consistent though that I'll sometimes pull audio from a different take to mask a clothing noise disruption.

Compared to narrative stuff, my system is probably pretty unprofessional but for mostly one man (I fly to a lot of remote locations) and sometime two man operations, this works great for me, the client absolutely loves the end result, it keeps costs low, and gives me an wicked competitive advantage over the other production houses in town.

I will admit though that I'm pretty obsessive compulsive when it comes to sound. I love learning everything I can about it, just like cinematography. I just do the absolute best I can with the tools I've got. Keeps food on the table.

The SD633 currently has my attention but it's lower on my equipment priority list right now (especially after hearing about that new Andra Focus System).

So back on topic, I have no problem using scratch audio from the camera for one subject pieces as long as it goes through a mixer or recorder like the H6 first and the signal coming into the camera isn't too quiet and doesn't clip. For everything else, I recommend capturing externally.

 

[Marc Wielage]

This works great for me but lav mic placement is paramount because I still get clothing noise every now and then. My actors are so awesome and consistent though that I'll sometimes pull audio from a different take to mask a clothing noise disruption.

Imagine if you had a competent sound person working for you who knew how to wire up people to eliminate clothing noise...

I often say, "the problem is not the equipment. The problem with sound is getting the microphone in the right place at the right time." This requires a person who can think and troubleshoot. You won't get that with a one-man band, and if you have a scripted production, you owe it to yourself to not skimp on sound. And again, there will always be the problem of an actor who talks this loud all the time, vs. another actor who chooses to talk this quietly all the time. If you have a good sound mixer on set, he or she can compensate for this problem and get both actors at close to the same level.

 

[Erwin van Dijck]

We use camera audio recording all the time! We use the Sound Devices MixPre and feed the signal directly into the Scarlet. Great combo. (but I would love to see a small, lightweight and easy RED module with XLR audio inputs for ENG/EFP moments).

 

[Dave Blackham]

I find it an utter waste of time, to sync my footage to audio.
We live in the 21st century, and it would be a yoke, if we should not be able to record the same quality in cameras than in a pro recorder.

Having said that,
I would never record in camera, without going trough a good mixer first, since I think it's the preamps that really make a difference not the recording part. Having an other cable hanging from my camera, doesn't really bother me - it's a spaghetti monster anyway.
And yeah, mics and a good sound guy/experienced boomer make a day and night difference IMHO.

Frank is right. The camera electronics should be able to record clean audio with out issues or its not work building the facility in to the device in the first place. Given that, Id always use a decent mic pre or mixer and the best mice I can use for the situation. Im privileged of having an inventory of over 200 of the best mics on the planet here so can select whats best for the job in hand. The perceived art of Audio recording is the match of the microphone to the mic preamp. It seems to be considered less important for film and picture based work than in the music industry but it is important to get right. Probably there will be more focus on the mixer or mic pre other functionality than the quality of the mic pre amp/mic match.

You best bet is to use something like an SQN or other similar mixer with good mic Preamps, a pair of Sennheiser MKH 30/60 or 30/40 mics or Shoeps CCM4 and CCM8 or CCM41 and CCM8 pair and feed the camera with the line out of the mixer. There are may permutations of this set up but all will be broadly the same.

And don't even think about bolting a mic to top of camera and get taken seriously….

 

[Marc Wielage]

Im privileged of having an inventory of over 200 of the best mics on the planet here so can select whats best for the job in hand.

You have 200 microphones but you insist on recording in-camera? :confused1:

What if you need to record 10 or 11 tracks simultaneously? The last two feature films I worked on as a sound mixer required this on many days of the shoot. Good luck getting all those separately into the camera. I have no problem sending a scratch track to camera just so that they can they can review performances and have a reference for syncing later on.

Syncing sound is not the arduous, time-consuming task people believe it to be. It takes seconds to do, provided the camera and sound timecodes are identical, and provided you know what you're doing. I've seen good assistant editors literally do it in less than :30 seconds per take, so we're talking 90 minutes for hundreds of takes. I've done it in dailies, and once you get macros set up, you can do it in 5 seconds. It's nearly automatic in Resolve -- just right-click the control on each take to tell it to lock it up with the corresponding WAV file with the identical timecode.

Bear in mind that you have to have all sound rolls numbered correctly and with correct metadata for all the track assignments and scene & take information. You will need this for any kind of professional sound edit and mix later on, so you can export XML data into Pro Tools and similar sound-specific programs. Using camera audio will cripple you for this eventual goal.

I have no problem with people using camera sound for dangerous situations like shooting news footage in wartime or clandestine documentaries, but if it's scripted material or a traditional documentary, it's nutty to depend on the 50-cent preamps in almost all digital cameras. This would be as lame as shooting 4K on an Epic with a $10 lens.

 

[Josh Rosenfield]

I am looking to use the 3.5mm front audio inputs on my EPIC X, and was concerned with the lack of threads to secure a 3.5mm cable. (My Sennheiser G3 wireless package came with threaded jacks that gave me the idea.) I removed the metal cover from that area and see that there are in fact threads, but they are hidden beneath the cover! I wonder why RED didn't provide access to the threads, which would have been so much more secure. I am thinking about drilling to enlarge the jack holes in the cover to leave the threads exposed. I was also thinking about trying to get a short double threaded M-F adapter to leave in the jacks and provide easier attachment, but I fear it would be too easily damaged. I also may need to get custom cables made, threaded inline 3.5mm male to threaded inline 3.5mm female, or female XLR. Anyone know where to get those?

I'm thinking sometimes I may be using XLR and other times 3.5mm.

See attached image.

Thoughts?

Josh

 

[ericyoung]

I am looking to use the 3.5mm front audio inputs on my EPIC X, and was concerned with the lack of threads to secure a 3.5mm cable. (My Sennheiser G3 wireless package came with threaded jacks that gave me the idea.) I removed the metal cover from that area and see that there are in fact threads, but they are hidden beneath the cover! I wonder why RED didn't provide expose threaded jacks, which would have been so much more secure. I am thinking about drilling to enlarge the jack holes in the cover to leave the threads exposed. I was also thinking about trying to get a short double threaded M-F adapter to leave in the jacks and provide easier attachment. Anyone know where to get one of those?

I'm thinking sometimes I may be using XLR and other times 3.5mm.

See attached image.

Thoughts?

Personally I think those 3.5mm sockets on the Epic are too fragile for constant plugging/replugging.

And with your lead sticking out like that, let alone via an M-F adapter, there's far too much leverage on that fragile connection for my taste.

I made my own 3.5mm to XLR breakout box and use that (equivalent to W0oden Camera's A-Box) which saves wear & damage on the Epic connectors.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Usually there is a sound guy. If we shoot something and I have to make sure sound is well without budget then I make sure there is redundancy. I usually put an iphone with the iphone tascam microphone right out side of frame or even into the speaking persons chest pocket if needed. Then a scratch track on camera and a third, main microphone on a boom usually on a small mixer and then a asistant is instructed how it all works and is called "the sound guy" that day. So far that setup never failed, but more than once I been saved by the iphone/tascam .

Had the pro I/o before but did not use it much it eats batteries and sound guys that demand xlr connectors usually / should have thier own recording device i think.

Im thinking of getting a pix and havjng sound hooked up to it together with wireless picture from the bolt and just record in proress proxy so sound files on the pix get picture to them even when recording in slomo and such

 

[Marc Wielage]

I am looking to use the 3.5mm front audio inputs on my EPIC X, and was concerned with the lack of threads to secure a 3.5mm cable. (My Sennheiser G3 wireless package came with threaded jacks that gave me the idea.) I removed the metal cover from that area and see that there are in fact threads, but they are hidden beneath the cover! I wonder why RED didn't provide access to the threads, which would have been so much more secure.

Personally I think those 3.5mm sockets on the Epic are too fragile for constant plugging/replugging. And with your lead sticking out like that, let alone via an M-F adapter, there's far too much leverage on that fragile connection for my taste.

I find it interesting to note that most of the new $10,000 4K cameras announced at the show (Aja, Blackmagic, etc.) all provide XLRs for audio and BNC jacks for timecode in and out -- no weird non-standard connectors, no breakout cables, just simple and easy.

 

[Josh Rosenfield]

Thanks all for the responses!

While a sound guy is always good, built in XLRs is a no brainer for sure.

Eric, could you please post an image and wiring diagram if available? How do you mount it and how do you keep the 3.5mm connection secure?

Anyone compared XLR via the PRO I/O with 3.5mm input via XLR adapter quality?

Thoughts on SQN vs 633 vs MixPre?

 

[Ted Parkes]

I have the WC A-box attached to the camera.. never unplug the Audio leads.. Works great but I do agree the Red audio inputs are less then ideal.

 

[Werner Jauch]

I leave this attached. http://fortiscinema.com/fortis-xlr-adapter-combo.php works well

 

[jimhare]

Hey Josh,

The Pro I/O makes an incredible difference to the quality, and rivals almost any sound recorder available. So yes, there is a very noticeable difference using the I/O compared to the A-Box, but having said that I'm perfectly happy recording through the 1/8" and do it all the time. It's only when you A/B them that you really hear the difference but the solution to that is not to compare!

Anyone compared XLR via the PRO I/O with 3.5mm input via XLR adapter quality?

Thoughts on SQN vs 633 vs MixPre?

 

[Nick Morrison]

I find it interesting to note that most of the new $10,000 4K cameras announced at the show (Aja, Blackmagic, etc.) all provide XLRs for audio and BNC jacks for timecode in and out -- no weird non-standard connectors, no breakout cables, just simple and easy.

Yes but most of these cameras are quite large and heavy by comparison. It's a trade off. An Epic's size makes it idea for Gimbal work, 3D, and other applications no other high end cinema camera can do. If you want sound, record it separately and use timecode and clapper. The epic audio inputs are really there for reference (though are good enough to be a backup for all practical purposes).

Adding XLRs to Epic would have made it more...like the RED ONE...which isn't what RED wanted.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

The Epic's size is a major advantage. Disadvantage is no XLRs and non traditional sound... so hire an awesome sound team, and use timecode/clapper. Its what the pro's do. I see no problem with this workflow. Actually I kind of admire it. Allows camera dept to focus on what they do, and sound to focus on their end. Sort of as it should be no?

 

[Marc Wielage]

Yes but most of these cameras are quite large and heavy by comparison. It's a trade off. An Epic's size makes it idea for Gimbal work, 3D, and other applications no other high end cinema camera can do. If you want sound, record it separately and use timecode and clapper. The epic audio inputs are really there for reference (though are good enough to be a backup for all practical purposes).

On the other hand: for normal scripted shoots with the camera on a tripod, crane, or dolly (like 97% of most filmmaking), I find the lens and mounts are often larger than the camera, even an Alexa. You gotta wonder how Arri gets along and not only survives, but prospers while offering full-size XLRs and very easily-accessible timecode inputs and outputs. Just sayin'.

Adding XLRs to Epic would have made it more...like the RED ONE...which isn't what RED one. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

Well, the Red One used TA3 mini-XLR connectors, which were about $5 apiece. Those I think are better than the 5 cent stereo 3.5mm connectors on the Epic.

I fear not only are the new 4K cameras coming out going to allow users to have their cake and eat it, too, they're going to eat Red's lunch if Red is not careful.

 

[M.D. Biemann]

Yes... for documentaries the ambient mini-shotgun goes strait into the cemara as well as run and gun boom mic.

I agree with the others.... Signal and mic is the key.

Sometimes 2 extra channels would be a blast eben in the small configuration, but thats it ;-)