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DJI RONIN Group Buy

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Thanks Scott. I'd like to know if it'd be possible to mount it on a Kessler Pro Jib in lieu of a Kessler Revolution pan and tilt head.
 
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Peter Majtan said:
Possibility of powering the RED directly from the DJI battery. In the above video from cinegear you can see the IDX brick mounted directly to the side of the RED. This is actually impressive as it shows the loads the head can stabilise - but it would be good to know if there was any possibility to power the whole system with a single battery (be it DJI or a custom). This has implications for aerials in particular...

Cheers

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...

You don't want to run the camera off of the DJI battery. If you run your AKS & Camera from the IDX 70W - the DJI battery actually will run the rig for almost 8 hours :)

You CAN pull AKS from the PTAP connector that is connected to the DJI battery - but that's 3A regulated - so it will not run camera. BEST way to do it is to run only the rig on DJI - and camera and AKS from IDX 70W (thin V-mount)
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
You don't want to run the camera off of the DJI battery. If you run your AKS & Camera from the IDX 70W - the DJI battery actually will run the rig for almost 8 hours :)

You CAN pull AKS from the PTAP connector that is connected to the DJI battery - but that's 3A regulated - so it will not run camera. BEST way to do it is to run only the rig on DJI - and camera and AKS from IDX 70W (thin V-mount)
Click to expand...

Agreed Mark, but I am in search of the lightest possible config that will work, as the payload for RC aerials is extremely limited. Helix for example can power the RED directly from its battery via custom cable. I am not worried about run time in such a situation - all we need is 30 min - which should be possible on a single battery.
If the DJI battery can't power the RED - I will be looking for a solution where a custom battery (like that IDX you are mentioning) could potentially power the Ronin as well as the camera and accessories.
8 hr runtime is an unwanted luxury for RC aerials - it means that your battery is too heavy for your application.
Imagine F1 racing on short circuit. They will only put just enough gas (with a bit of a tiny reserve) as they believe they will need to complete the race - they won't fill up the whole tank. All to maximize the power to weight ratio.
Same issue for RC aerials...

On the ground it is a whole different story and there I can see the advantage of the 8hr run time for the rig. Adding separate battery for the camera in these situations is not an issue - and as the rig has demonstrated - it can more then handle it...

:sifone: Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
Agreed Mark, but I am in search of the lightest possible config that will work, as the payload for RC aerials is extremely limited. Helix for example can power the RED directly from its battery via custom cable. I am not worried about run time in such a situation - all we need is 30 min - which should be possible on a single battery.
If the DJI battery can't power the RED - I will be looking for a solution where a custom battery (like that IDX you are mentioning) could potentially power the Ronin as well as the camera and accessories.
8 hr runtime is an unwanted luxury for RC aerials - it means that your battery is too heavy for your application.
Imagine F1 racing on short circuit. They will only put just enough gas (with a bit of a tiny reserve) as they believe they will need to complete the race - they won't fill up the whole tank. All to maximize the power to weight ratio.
Same issue for RC aerials...

On the ground it is a whole different story and there I can see the advantage of the 8hr run time for the rig. Adding separate battery for the camera in these situations is not an issue - and as the rig has demonstrated - it can more then handle it...

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...

What kind of Heli are you planning on using the Ronin with? It seems very heavy for a Heli.
 
scott devitte said:
What kind of Heli are you planning on using the Ronin with? It seems very heavy for a Heli.
Click to expand...

Our Draco - a Bergen Turbine Observer - jet-turbine powered 2.5m RC heli with payload of 20 lbs...:

Draco.jpg


http://bergenrc.com/ObserverTurbine.php


Mark L. Pederson said:
This is the battery - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/381930-REG/IDX_E_7S_E_7S_Endura_Lithium_Ion_V_Mount.html

1.15 lbs.

or cheaper - 1.16 lbs - http://globalmediapro-batteries.com...li65s-lithium-ion-battery-65wh/dp/A01F18.html
Click to expand...

Mark - I do know that battery - but as I have said above - that's extra 1.15 lbs on top of the weight of the Ronin's battery.
My total payload limit is 20 lbs - and once you add the weight of mini-rigger RED, the Ronin and all the other electronics and accessories - every 100g counts, never mind a pound...
As I have said on another thread - people pay $ 17.500,- USD more for the CF Dragon Epic to achieve 450g weight saving (the only difference and sole purpose of the CF Dragon)...

Again - this is specialised application and I am aware the vast majority of peeps here won't use the Ronin this way. But options can't hurt - right?

:sifone: Peter
 
OK, here are a few things that I think could really use addressing, before shipping a production ready unit.

Weight Reduction-There needs to be more Carbon Fiber-the weight on the RED configured, demo non-production Ronin I saw demoed at Cinegear, was definitely on the heavy side. Suitcase mode appeared a bit too awkward, in transition. Overhead transition similarly so and required an assistant.

Points of Contact - With a typically configured RED rig, additional points of contact would be a big plus. Hopefully some modification here is to be incorporated. We already know one such design.

Crossmenber shortening/adjustments- The side handles are rather widely spaced. Depending on operator girth and the shot, bringing elbows closer to trunk would be helpful. Either optional shorter cross members or telescoping cross members. Otherwise start doing more curls, with your arms forward and away from your trunk.

Rosettes on side handle attachments, at least.

Support Rig Mounting Plate - there were so many rigs attached to Steadicam/support rigs, going around Ciengear, that this is fast becoming a requirement. I understand significant progress has been made by DJI here. Great. A "universal mounting plate" would be ideal.

Power management - The DJI supplied rig battery is way cool and light, however, can't run RED. Better would be a single regulated power source, which it seems would be a net weight savings and allow enough power for aerially configured rigs. Getting the Camera battery on a Belt, without cable impingement issues, for handheld work, is otherwise preferable .

Software - I understood that there is still some work here, BUT, Willis,et al. all seemed confident for end of June shipping.

Toolless design - I understand that this is to be incorporated on more points of the RONIN.


RED Partnering - I understand that there is a discount, for concurrent Dragon Carbon Fiber/RONIN purchasers. For those of us, who had foresight and already purchased our DCF cameras, is there a media or? discount? This doesn't fall into the above list as directly, but is cogent.

I sure was hoping to see a production ready unit, but the prototype was impressive, nonetheless. The marketplace is getting crowded though and service will be king, going forward...
 
Hi all,

just joined RedUser to thank you for organising this great groupbuy, and to say I'm in (if it is, hopefully, not too late).
Already entered my info in the webform, and hope I can still get on the list here.

Thanks!
 
Willis did not bring the Ronin to Adorama. Answer to Peter-no, to Nikhil-yes. Had a good talk with Willis. It seems, what I perceived, that no matter what goes down here, the guys in China are running the show. So factor that into the guessing game. Willis does seem very up on the industry and what people need. Very smart and energetic guy. My feeling is if you buy into the Ronin it is important as a group to keep the pressure on for service and updates. No exact timetable for thumb controller, but it is rf, so can be operated apart from the gimbal.
 
Awesome, thank you so much, Scott! Thank you also for sharing your thoughts. Good to know.
 
Zeb B said:
Hey Willis,

Please provide a single page that covers the official, final DJI / RED Group Buy terms and conditions so I can link it to the first page of this thread. Having external links to retailer sites to find out pricing, kit contents, payments and other details is a RED User Group Buy no-no.

We need to have:
1. Kit Contents (from all dealers if they are different)
2. Costs including domestic shipping
3. ETA to shipping first let's say 200 units
4. Deposit / Final Payment terms and conditions
5. Return Policy
6. Support for International customers both in purchase and after sale
7. Warranty Terms and Conditions

Extra credit for answers to these questions:
1. When can an independent RED User test and evaluate the Ronin? Feel free to ship me what you are showing at Cine Gear for that test. I have many qualified friends that know how to put a pro gimbal to the test fairly and independently.
2. Warranty Service Center locations
3. Dealer Allocation - I see now that AMP is maybe getting only 50 units. That's disappointing. When are they getting the 2nd and 3rd 50 units?
4. Support Plan / Phone and Workshops if any
5. Thumb Wheel cost and ETA
6. Is the Auto Calibrate feature currently functional?


Also if you care to address: from my Post #274

Features & Package Deal Wishlist (post your ideas and requests so we can include then present this to AMP/DJI):

1. Top Priority = smoking package deal on Carbon Dragon and Epic. Would love for RED/DJI/AMP kick down a compelling and integrated bundle
2. Thumb Control
3. Extra Battery and little parts that break or get lost replacement kit
4. Custom PeliCase like so: http://cinemaoxide.com/site/product/pelican-case-for-movi-m10-red-overlay/
5. Limited "RE" RED Edition which could include some value add by AMP making this product "Tuned For RED"
6. Training by AMP and/or DJI - "Top Cam - Learn to Fly" (Top Gun motif) . . . A one day workshop covering everything from initializing, flying and servicing the pig. This series to be made available via private YouTube channel for International customers.
7. Pro Certification like Microsoft and Apple have through seminars and tests.
8. Direct DJI Cine Hotline Pro-Support. Not the regular 1-800 RC support line.
9. First in line for Upgrade path
10. Extended / Transferable Warranty
11. Universal mount to allow attachment to 3rd party gear such as SteadiCam or AP Raptor. Might be 3rd party supplied but need interface drawings and project champion. Fury perhaps?
12. Discount on bundle with DJI's LightBridge system as an option for those who want it
13. Transmitter/Receiver for 2nd Operator as an option for those who want it
14. 12 volt and 5 volt aux power ports for monitors etc - see below Demo for Morons vid. . . start at 2:45 to prevent nerve damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7MsNxFHdCU
15. Multirotor Attachment to allow quick release from top handle and reattachment to Octo
16. "X" Price discount . . . last since I personally value the above more. Folks have suggested a 10-50% off deal. I don't think a deep price discount is realistic. Trost Sliders selling direct, when their intial market is 100% RU's, has nothing in common with a large, established, global company like DJI who prices with no consideration to first in line buyers expectations. Just saying don't get all crazy thinking on this issue.

And of course . . . SWAG!!! - "DJI RE", "TOP CAM Pro Pilot" gear 'n wear, Stickers and other fun stuff
Click to expand...

Hey guys,
I just finished Adorama Street Fair, unfortunately didn't have enough arms to carry the Ronin & Camera w/ me, therefore @ScottDevitte, apologies for wasting your time, it was a pleasure meeting you though.

Ok Zeb, you have very valid questions that needs addressing, after speaking w/ Paul Pan from HQ, here is what we got for you.

We need to have:
1. Kit Contents (from all dealers if they are different)
1 x Ronin Gimbal
1 x Ronin Intelligent Battery
1 x Ronin Battery Charger
1 x Dual mini 15mm accessory rods
1 x Lens support base
1 x Remote Operator Controller 2.4ghz
1 x Camera Dovetail Plate
1 x Collapsable tuning / balancing stand (able to take top part off to mount on a baby pin)
2 x Top Bar Accessory Mounts
2 x 1/4" Camera Screws
2 x 3/8" Camera Screws
1 x Allen Wrench Set
1 x Accessories Pouch
1 x Custom Molded Pelican-Style Carrying Case with hard foam
1 x Power Breakout Box
All dealers will be offering the same discount for the group buy. The only dealer that will be offering something different is AMP.

2. Costs including domestic shipping
This is dependent on the dealer, your geographic location, and the type of service the dealer uses.

3. ETA to shipping first let's say 200 units
We are on schedule to ship out the first batch of units from our factory at the end of June which are scheduled to be sent to AMP. As production ramps up, we’ll be shipping these to those dealers listed in the group buy.

4. Deposit / Final Payment terms and conditions
The deposit and payment terms will be dependent on the dealer.

5. Return Policy
Because this transaction is not taking place directly with DJI, the return policy may be different from dealer to dealer. You should be able to go to each dealer’s site and view their return policies.

6. Support for International customers both in purchase and after sale.
We are working on our international sales channel. Those that sign up for the group buy through the group buy page that reside outside of North America will be contacted via a dealer nearest their geographic location.

7. Warranty Terms and Conditions
For North America, there will be a limited one year warranty against defects in materials and workmanship. This warranty will be covered in detail once we approach product launch.

Extra credit for answers to these questions:
1. When can an independent RED User test and evaluate the Ronin?
When one is ready, we’ll let you know. I might be able to host an LA gathering in a local studio.

2. Warranty Service Center locations
Warranty service will go through our North America office for North American customers. RMA's to be issued out from our Pro Support Team

3. Dealer Allocation - I see now that AMP is maybe getting only 50 units. That's disappointing. When are they getting the 2nd and 3rd 50 units?
Due to business relations, we cannot disclose the number of units each dealer will be ordering, however we are prioritizing their shipments.

4. Support Plan / Phone and Workshops if any
We will have a Pro support team in place. This will entail phone support as well as video conference support. Workshops are also in the works as well and will be announced at a later date once we work out all the logistics. Our potential support team consists of Prep Techs, 3D Rig Techs, Gimbal Techs, camera savvy responsible individuals.

5. Thumb Wheel cost and ETA
Thumb controller will be coming soon after the launch of the Ronin. At this time the price is TBD.

6. Is the Auto Calibrate feature currently functional?
Auto calibration is currently functional and working.


Hope this information helps.
 
Thx! I'm on an iPhone just now so can't reply. One other question:
1. Full Specs and weights with different options. I understand that it is not final yet but where are we at the 90% of production model?

Thx again - I'll review tonight

Cheers!
 
Hey Willis,

Still very vague on most points but I'll leave it to the individual buyers to seek their own comfort level with the individual retailers since all the critical details lay with them. If RED User Management is OK with having all the purchase details offsite and not publicly published on this site then I guess we can proceed. Usually they forbid outside links to The Deal specifics.

I would like to have the answer to a couple questions. One of which I have been asking privately for over a month:

1. When am I getting a Beta unit and at what cost? I am not looking for anything free - I do believe I deserve first look and post to this thread. Please provide the specific date and cost I have been asking for. The first 50 Betas you mentioned must be in the wild by now if you are planning production later on this month. Just looking for what you promised to me. If DJI cannot keep that promise for my efforts then that is all I need to know about where to take my business.

2. Why is AMP not getting more than 50 units initially? Patrick is the Group Buy Distributor, a RED Sponsor and someone we can post feedback about and get a response from on this forum if things don't go well or we have questions. If DJI is providing Pro Support then AMP should be able to handle most if not all domestic sales from this program.

3. Please post a complete list of all the proposed dealers for this Group Buy so we can review their terms and conditions to be able to make an informed decision.

4. What is the weight and full specifications of the Ronin as it stands? Seems like it's time to show your cards if you are asking for deposits. I assume that the design priority has been low cost - not low weight. That's cool but weight is a critical component to this class of product. What is it?

5. Returns / Refunds: although you are leaving it to the Retailer to make policy - I would like to hear DJI's policy with the Retailer since if DJI will take back a Ronin within, let's say a week, then the Retailer can pass that policy through. If you are not willing to provide specifics on a brand new, untested and reviewed product - then there has to be a return policy stated here so we can all have the confidence that if the Ronin does not perform as expected that DJI will take it back. If you have an unconditional 7 day return policy then that reduces most of the purchase risk for the RED User.

If there are other questions from the Group Buy members please state them here and now so we can all move on.

Thanks!
 
Hi Zeb,

I'm not Willis, and I don't work for DJI - but as someone who likes and respects you and what you bring to the community here, and also have known Willis for several years prior to him joining DJI, I just want to say a few things in the interest of all involved.

To an outsider, it would seem that while group buys have brought an incredible level of direct communication between companies making new products and people looking to adopt them early on, as well as obtain discounts for committing first - they have also generated a great deal of controversy and led to a condition that is not necessarily a personal attack on someone, but more of a situation where a single person has to become the pivot point to several hundred or several thousand people who all have needs and wants that a company wants to address - but these things take time, and product development, distribution (where a group buy comes in), and customer/community relations are all extremely complex.

DJI doesn't normally sell direct - they do offer phantoms direct sometimes, but their more complex products depend on the dealer network for support because this is a professional, mass market product- it really needs the help of the local dealers who can help you tune the product and maintain it. It's a balancing act (pun intended)

If Willis had come in here promising people the moon and starting the group buy in the interest of getting a ton of early sales going - then I would say - he opened himself up to whatever happens.

instead, he was gracious enough to help try to establish a group buy model that respects dealers, gives customers a discount, and gives the community here something that DJI has never offered before - an early adopter discount.

While no one is flaming Willis , I would say he is being lightly Grilled in this forum topic.

Chances are he might not have a conclusive answer to a 14 point board of questions right after running two trade shows on opposite coasts back to back, but to see that he made an effort to answer all those blew me away.

I'm not saying anyone has done something wrong, just reminding us all that Willis is human, all of the companies making products for our market are made up of humans (possibly some extraterrestrials with some of the incredible stuff we see these days) - and that from what I can see - no one in this group buy is trying to scam the community here.

I'm going to make my comments on the questions below - not because I need to, but because sometimes I can be a tool on the forums and just have to say something - I just have to get it out of my system.

1. This is probably good for a private email between you and Willis, or someone in sales at DJI or a dealer. I have no idea what was promised to you, but I know that it's extremely rare for companies to just hand out engineering samples like candy to outside users, especially when they are being pressured publicly. Again - I have nothing to gain here, just an observation.

2. Willis does not run the supply chain as far as I know, so this might not be up to him, and this may very well be the first 50 early production units.

3. That's a very fair question - and will be useful to all involved. I am confident that they will provide this if the dealers announce it. Sometimes dealers make their own special bundles and stuff, at their own loss (or gain)

4. I'm not sure how the development process works at DJI but I know that materials and processes can change right up to the delivery date of a product. DJI makes some really great UAVs - I'm sure they are aware that weight is a factor. I'm not a gimbal user, but if I needed one now today I would rent one or borrow one if I had a shoot next week - things change and they change fast.

5. Dealer policy is typically something private between dealers and a manufacturer. Part of a dealers responsibility is handling returns and making arrangements with end users. If you decided to become a DJI dealer and cut your margins by committing to a 50 to 250 piece order on your own financing for the benefit of a group buy you could control the return policy and have a contract made between yourself and DJI. You would also have to handle customer support, shipping and logistics and field phone calls from buyers and potential buyers.

I would have faith that if you became a dealer and ran a group buy off your margin you could sell all of the Ronins and probably end up with more than a few Ronins for yourself ;)

My personal take:

DJi and the dealers need to come up with a defined policy for this group buy. Define start and end dates, standard discount level and announce them.

starts day X, ends day Y, discount is Z. Ronin weighs A, Ronin will likely (may not be firm) start shipping B, Ronin package will ship with C.

several of these variables are in this massive thread - but consolidating it into the first post is probably the best for all, right?

besides that, I think it's pretty cut and dry? Right?



Zeb B said:
Hey Willis,

Still very vague on most points but I'll leave it to the individual buyers to seek their own comfort level with the individual retailers since all the critical details lay with them. If RED User Management is OK with having all the purchase details offsite and not publicly published on this site then I guess we can proceed. Usually they forbid outside links to The Deal specifics.

I would like to have the answer to a couple questions. One of which I have been asking privately for over a month:

1. When am I getting a Beta unit and at what cost? I am not looking for anything free - I do believe I deserve first look and post to this thread. Please provide the specific date and cost I have been asking for. The first 50 Betas you mentioned must be in the wild by now if you are planning production later on this month. Just looking for what you promised to me. If DJI cannot keep that promise for my efforts then that is all I need to know about where to take my business.

2. Why is AMP not getting more than 50 units initially? Patrick is the Group Buy Distributor, a RED Sponsor and someone we can post feedback about and get a response from on this forum if things don't go well or we have questions. If DJI is providing Pro Support then AMP should be able to handle most if not all domestic sales from this program.

3. Please post a complete list of all the proposed dealers for this Group Buy so we can review their terms and conditions to be able to make an informed decision.

4. What is the weight and full specifications of the Ronin as it stands? Seems like it's time to show your cards if you are asking for deposits. I assume that the design priority has been low cost - not low weight. That's cool but weight is a critical component to this class of product. What is it?

5. Returns / Refunds: although you are leaving it to the Retailer to make policy - I would like to hear DJI's policy with the Retailer since if DJI will take back a Ronin within, let's say a week, then the Retailer can pass that policy through. If you are not willing to provide specifics on a brand new, untested and reviewed product - then there has to be a return policy stated here so we can all have the confidence that if the Ronin does not perform as expected that DJI will take it back. If you have an unconditional 7 day return policy then that reduces most of the purchase risk for the RED User.

If there are other questions from the Group Buy members please state them here and now so we can all move on.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
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Hello Dan,

I desagree in part of what you posted in the following respect:

ZEB started a fantastic group buy that was intended to be relationship between us RU's and AMP ( AMP will sell one of their future products to the red community) and that sounded great....we had awesome feedback and interest from the AMP guys as obviously they were interested in getting a large number of buyers from our community while providing us with special package deals!

we were sort of NAIVE as to let DJI take over the RUGB because , as said before, some dealers that we usually deal with are already willing to give us a 7-10% discount based purely on our relationship while selling single units!

DJI took advantage of this GB not in our favor, but in my view, favoring their own dealers, by getting the deal away from the original AMP's exclusivity and dissolving this group by on the hands of many different dealers ( so they would all be happy with DJI!!)

On our side of the equation.....we got screwed! meaning that we would have much more power and punch dealing only with AMP's that would definitely provide us better package deals for getting almost 300 orders at once

Now....when push comes to shove .....our group by got dissolved and divided throughout many dealers and all we have gotten is an extra battery and a 10% discount ( as the package provided by DJI is the same for our GB as it is for any other individual buyer out there.

both us RU's and AMP's got screwed allowing DJI take over this awesome job done by ZEB.....and what pisses me of the most is the lack of respect DJI is showing to ZEB......Whom by this time should have received not only the BETA UNIT ( for free) but should have gotten the whole damn line of products they sell for free!!

Just my 2 cents!
 
Group buys ten times smaller than this can turn to crap fast. Add to that the expectations built up to fever pitch making landing this group buy a difficult prospect.

I`m glad I`m not in the market for a gimbal in the next few months.
 
Hi Willis, where is the promised universal mount we discussed during the hangout session? You said it would be ready by now for us steadi-ops to have a look before monkey is exchanged. Also I thought we would be getting two batteries instead of one. Please help clarify, Thanks!


P
 
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