Defending RED, Camera (Brand) Wars, Shot On What?!

[Andriy Trofymenko]

It's not a frikking SS skull. It's a visual analogy.

Red had "camera brains" before. Which was innacurate analogy.
It's a camera head. Head = skull outside, brain inside.

If it associates to that, it's a matter of particular design approach and context (especially with militaristic naming), not the symbol itself.

I really like shooting on RED but I think I am not the only one who absolutely hates the aesthetics of their branding. ever since the R1 it had this tattooed biker feel to their marketing and im not a fan.
It's just not for everyone. With that said it is a weird thing to base your camera choice on. That shouldn't matter on set.

 

[Uday Bhaskar Karra]

I really like shooting on RED but I think I am not the only one who absolutely hates the aesthetics of their branding. ever since the R1 it had this tattooed biker feel to their marketing and im not a fan.
It's just not for everyone. With that said it is a weird thing to base your camera choice on. That shouldn't matter on set.

Just trying to get your perspective here...
How does the Arri Brand Naming's sound for you? or Let's say from Sony.

Arri for sure feels Feminine to me. Alexa, Amira... etc. But we can not take it as a reason not to shoot with those damn good cameras.
I don't think Branding would be the core reason for not being picked up.

 

[Les Hillis]

If we're talking about branding on the actual camera and modules, I'd like to see more options there, including no logo's or insignia at all. That's not in reaction to RED's particular styling, but applies to all the products I buy or use. Maybe with DSMC3 we'll have more of a choice in regards to what we display (or cover up) on our equipment.

 

[Andriy Trofymenko]

Just trying to get your perspective here...
How does the Arri Brand Naming's sound for you? or Let's say from Sony.

Arri for sure feels Feminine to me. Alexa, Amira... etc. But we can not take it as a reason not to shoot with those damn good cameras.
I don't think Branding would be the core reason for not being picked up.

Arri Alexa does sound a bit feminine and most camera owner operators especially foreign ones refer to their cameras in feminine terms "I really enjoy shooting with her". Its so common I dont think about it. But the femininity or masculinity is not the vibe I get from either brand.
It's not as relevant as other aspects. Its more like Formula 1 racing vs Nascar. Think something with more class vs something that's less refined but still capable. Both are masculine but in different ways. The vibe I get from Arri are more associated with these terms: classy, heritage, precision, with a tad of industrialness, if that's even a word. RED you could associate more with a power tool in a garage. Different terms come to mind. In a male dominated space like technology, femininity seems to sell. Amazon adopted the same name for their voice assistant. Apple did the same thing. I guess it appeals to a mans psyche. As for sony the branding comes across as very suit and tie. Very corporate. Not artsy, like Im supposed to use their equipment for TV broadcasting and corporate interviews. But I had to take the nostalgia of using sony products as a kid out of the equation to get that flavor of sony in my mind. Anyway that's just my perspective. Everyone is different. Hope this helps.

 

[Uday Bhaskar Karra]

Arri Alexa does sound a bit feminine and most camera owner operators especially foreign ones refer to their cameras in feminine terms "I really enjoy shooting with her". Its so common I dont think about it. But the femininity or masculinity is not the vibe I get from either brand.
It's not as relevant as other aspects. Its more like Formula 1 racing vs Nascar. Think something with more class vs something that's less refined but still capable. Both are masculine but in different ways. The vibe I get from Arri are more associated with these terms: classy, heritage, precision, with a tad of industrialness, if that's even a word. RED you could associate more with a power tool in a garage. Different terms come to mind. In a male dominated space like technology, femininity seems to sell. Amazon adopted the same name for their voice assistant. Apple did the same thing. I guess it appeals to a mans psyche. As for sony the branding comes across as very suit and tie. Very corporate. Not artsy, like Im supposed to use their equipment for TV broadcasting and corporate interviews. But I had to take the nostalgia of using sony products as a kid out of the equation to get that flavor of sony in my mind. Anyway that's just my perspective. Everyone is different. Hope this helps.

Ok I may have deviated this discussion in a different direction. Sorry for that.
However, what I am trying to understand is... does brand naming, styling, logos would make people choose the cameras?
Choosing a consumer level product like phones Would be influenced from above aesthetics... but at a professional level movie making?

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

Ok I may have deviated this discussion in a different direction. Sorry for that.
However, what I am trying to understand is... does brand naming, styling, logos would make people choose the cameras?
Choosing a consumer level product like phones Would be influenced from above aesthetics... but at a professional level movie making?

REDS branding/style is that of an upmarket Tattoo parlor.

I know that is not for everyone.

 

[Björn Benckert]

If we're talking about branding on the actual camera and modules, I'd like to see more options there, including no logo's or insignia at all. That's not in reaction to RED's particular styling, but applies to all the products I buy or use. Maybe with DSMC3 we'll have more of a choice in regards to what we display (or cover up) on our equipment.

If I could choose I pick all my toys, tools and other stuff without graphics, laser engravings or other branding and the stuff can all come in any color as long as they are black.

Big text on front of the red 5" touch screens where it says "pro" to me kind of screams not pro at all. Same goes for the scull on the side of DSMC2 and all the other laser engravings. And if I was a pro DP Im sure all that stuff would put off even more.

But this kind of stuff is everywhere. Does not matter what it is, impossible to buy a plain snowboard, surf kite, wakeboard, bike, car, phone, computer or what ever. They all have marketing departments that seams to think that they have not done their job right before they put stickers, brand colors and name imprints over the whole thing. I like to think they are all doing it wrong that I can't be the only one that would appreciate a more clean approach.

Model name next to the serial number underneath the camera and nothing else, thats what I would have done if it was up to me for the DSMC3 lineup.

 

[rand thompson]

I didn't want to say anything but dam!! Everyone here knew the "Red Culture" before and after they bought into the "Red ecosystem. Now everyone is like " hey red, thanks for all the upgrade options and the close interaction with the Red team and upper management, including the President of the company. However, we don't like anything you always stood for, or quite frankly you as individuals"


"Why aren't you more like Leica or hasselblad "

"Why don't all the great guys who spend the time and effort to make the Red video not wearing Tailored suits, with arched eyebrows and haircuts from super cuts"

I understand that some feel that all the skull logos and other things about the Red Culture may "Put Off" others in a professional environment who don't understand it, however, you all know better! Don't piss on the people and company that got you where you are in your professional carreers!

 

[C. Burkhart]

This is one of the dumbest discussions ever here.
RED doesn't need to be defended. They can do it all by themselves.
What this is really about is people justifying their own choices and basically preaching to the choir.
Get over it guys.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Arri for sure feels Feminine to me. Alexa, Amira... etc.

Camera IS feminine.

It would be called camer otherwise.

 

[Uday Bhaskar Karra]

Camera IS feminine.

It would be called camer orherwise.

You are correct. I looked into dictionary, and ways to check if a word is masculine or feminine by relating it with latin word etc.
My intention was to say every manufacturer has their own naming style. Lets say Canon/Sony camera names feel like Code names etc... So a DP/Camera Operator may not be considering Brand naming/Logos for professional work.

By the way, you took time to realize me that Camera is a feminine word. Thanks for that.
Please take time to address your perspective on this discussion as well. if you have some time.
I see that you being very experienced and seasonal professional and you also offer Luts for most of the current cameras line up from major companies. So you know much better about these cameras and someone like me can learn from your words.
Appreciate your time.


Thanks
Uday

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

Now everyone is like…”, we don't like anything you always stood for, or quite frankly you as individuals"

I think its quite possible to point out REDs branding is hurting its marketability while still liking what RED stand for or the individuals at the company. I don’t see anyone in this thread hating the people.

 

[rand thompson]

I think its quite possible to point out REDs branding is hurting its marketability while still liking what RED stand for or the individuals at the company. I don’t see anyone in this thread hating the people.

I said not like or not respect, not hate get what I said correct. I was never talking about a legitimate "beef" with Red like software problems, hardware problems, the time it takes for repairs....etc. Just this mentality of " we like what you during, but could you just be somebody else"

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

I said not like or not respect, not hate get what I said correct. I was never talking about a legitimate "beef" with Red like software problems, hardware problems, the time it takes for repairs....etc. Just this mentality of " we like what you during, but could you just be somebody else"

I just distilled what you wrote down. Suggesting someone doesnt like someone and doesnt respect someone could be construed as "hating". If thats not what you meant sorry. My point was no one in this thread mentioned they didn`t like the people at RED. The thread seems quite polite as far as I can see.

Regarding legitimate beef: You seem to say disagreeing with REDS branding is not a legitimate beef. I`d say there is room for conversation on software/hardware problems AND thoughts on branding. No need to close down negative conversation. If you have been around here for a long time you`ll know RED thrive on criticism from REDUSERs and have made MANY changes to the cameras as a result of threads like this. I`d love them to listen to this thread and tone down the gamer graphics and tattoo parlor chic.

 

[rand thompson]

Again, you equate "not like" with "hate", maybe where you're from it's the same thing. I don't like how loud my friend sings when he's driving, I don't hate him. I don't think Red pulled that skull and all the names of their cameras out of a hat on a whim, a bet or as an afterthought. It's not like some simple "Coke" product new logo, it's part of the Red Identity, culture. I'm sure Jim, Jarred, Brent and the rest of the Red team thought long and hard about how they wanted to represent themselves in the " Upscale" Digital Cinema Camera market. They probably took some of the same slack from the industry and others about their choices in marketing their products over the last 10+ years, yet chose to continue on.

To everyone it seems just a simple rebranding of their product to make them "fit in". But I would image it's asking them to go against everything they believe in. My 2 cents.... an I'm out.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

By the way, you took time to realize me that Camera is a feminine word. Thanks for that.
Please take time to address your perspective on this discussion as well. if you have some time.
I see that you being very experienced and seasonal professional and you also offer Luts for most of the current cameras line up from major companies. So you know much better about these cameras and someone like me can learn from your words.
Appreciate your time.

Thanks for your kind words. Much has been already been said on this thread.

14 years ago this was all a fantasy and a small group of professionals and camera enthusiasts around the world stayed up late to watch as a team with zero experience in a particular type of project embarked on something very rare. While working on something which pushed the boundaries, in many ways stepping into an unchartered territory, they too stayed up late and shared their vision, efforts, problems, listened to ideas, feedback.

12 years ago, as the first outcome was born and hit the market, it shook the industry. The rest of the solutions on the market were either broadcast tools, or prosumer cameras, or 2/3" cameras modded for cinema, or D21 or Dalsa Origin. Apart from few places in the world you could forget getting close to Elephant Man, or shooting with Viper or having a practical access to- and workflow with- Arri's D20. Sony's F35 came out a year after. And shot HD. So... this cool guy with a great eye called Macgregor did a test of R1 and what was closest in the context of accessibility and imaging performance - Sony EX1. 12bit 4K raw S35 camera which you could actually purchase and record UHD raw on frikking CF cards and an 8 Bit Mpeg2 TV HD camera with 1/2" sensors.

Fast forward to 2019. You can work with cinema quality UHD raw natively in a coffee place on a frikking laptop and get excellent imagery from a bunch of cameras.

The same project which to many looked like a joke back then, managed to:

a) pioneer accessible UHD raw acquisition
b) bring UHD cinematic imagery in hands of many across the planet
c) form an upgrade system which allowed many to grow further
d) pioneer practical UHD+ acquisition and got to 8K
e) pioneer digital cinema camera modularity
f) bring back US on a cinema camera map (reducing market dominance and motivating further development)
g) bring some high skilled jobs back to US (which in times of corporative social tumours is socially responsible and deserves credit)
h) cater the market from bloggers to blockbusters
i) improve colour science, camera bodies, internal procesing, sensors, components and workflow - several times
j) achieve top class imaging performance
k) expand a camera lineup for various budgets and priorities
l) got to a level of Panavision and NASA


Good stuff is easy to forget. Bad easily pops up.
Criticism is easy. Development is hard.

Developing anything includes mistakes. Otherwise it would be just "doing".
You don't just imagine and off you go and "do" a product/project and all goes peaches and cream flawlessy with every step. You meet challenges and make mistakes and develop it from an inferior to a superior state.

Is the criticism founded? Yes it is.
How dramatic is it really ? How bad the things really are ?

 

[Sergio Perez]

Thanks for your kind words. Much has been already been said on this thread.

14 years ago this was all a fantasy and a small group of professionals and camera enthusiasts around the world stayed up late to watch as a team with zero experience in a particular type of project embarked on something very rare. While working on something which pushed the boundaries, in many ways stepping into an unchartered territory, they too stayed up late and shared their vision, efforts, problems, listened to ideas, feedback.

12 years ago, as the first outcome was born and hit the market, it shook the industry. The rest of the solutions on the market were either broadcast tools, or prosumer cameras, or 2/3" cameras modded for cinema, or D21 or Dalsa Origin. Apart from few places in the world you could forget getting close to Elephant Man, or shooting with Viper or having a practical access to- and workflow with- Arri's D20. Sony's F35 came out a year after. And shot HD. So... this cool guy with a great eye called Macgregor did a test of R1 and what was closest in the context of accessibility and imaging performance - Sony EX1. 12bit 4K raw S35 camera which you could actually purchase and record UHD raw on frikking CF cards and an 8 Bit Mpeg2 TV HD camera with 1/2" sensors.

Fast forward to 2019. You can work with cinema quality UHD raw natively in a coffee place on a frikking laptop and get excellent imagery from a bunch of cameras.

The same project which to many looked like a joke back then, managed to:

a) pioneer accessible UHD raw acquisition
b) bring UHD cinematic imagery in hands of many across the planet
c) form an upgrade system which allowed many to grow further
d) pioneer practical UHD+ acquisition and got to 8K
e) pioneer digital cinema camera modularity
f) bring back US on a cinema camera map (reducing market dominance and motivating further development)
g) bring some high skilled jobs back to US (which in times of corporative social tumours is socially responsible and deserves credit)
h) cater the market from bloggers to blockbusters
i) improve colour science, camera bodies, internal procesing, sensors, components and workflow - several times
j) achieve top class imaging performance
k) expand a camera lineup for various budgets and priorities
l) got to a level of Panavision and NASA


Good stuff is easy to forget. Bad easily pops up.
Criticism is easy. Development is hard.

Developing anything includes mistakes. Otherwise it would be just "doing".
You don't just imagine and off you go and "do" a product/project and all goes peaches and cream flawlessy with every step. You meet challenges and make mistakes and develop it from an inferior to a superior state.

Is the criticism founded? Yes it is.
How dramatic is it really ? How bad the things really are ?

Great Post.

 

[Chuck Greenwood]

I got 2900 hrs on a MX and still deliver/get paid like a boss.
Fight club

 

[Sergio Perez]

Unfortunately I only have my old, "Indie" work on my signature's links, should update it with a reel of my work the last 5 years, but never really felt the need for a showreel for that, since, well, things are going ok for me (don't want to jinx this ! )

But I would like to share a story about reliability. I just don't have time for behind the scenes shots and everything about this, which I have, and hopefully this description is enough.

Just saw a guy posting a reliability issue on his Scarlet when he was comparing it to the Alexa mini and it pissed me off, so I felt I should post this here.

I've been the director for the last 12 years of the Macau Grand Prix TV Commercials has well as Highlight videos of the main FIA races (and motorcycle)

Since 2012 we have been shooting them at 4K+ and mainly with Red cameras. About 90% of it in fact. Intercuted with some POV Gopro and 1DC and 1DX Mark II shots (over the years new cameras appeared).

Our schedule is tight. While for the TV Commercials we have all the time in the world to capture some fictional or staged shots, during the event, for the Highlight videos we have to do the things most people complain about: Quick turnaround, backup, edit and final product output. And every single moment or shot counts. There's no space for failure of the camera.

The Motorsport event takes place for 4 days. We start shooting 3 days prior, bring lights and other support gear to shoot the cars, formulas and bikes prior showtime for the Glamour shots. Then its off to the races with 4 Red cameras on track, DITs running to offload cards in Base- all on Macs, including edit- Final Cut Pro X (final web output with some da Vinci grading, but not much due to time constrains. Would love for proper grading in these.).

From 2012 until 2018, shooting 5K, 4K, 3K High Speed, 7K and 8K since 2016. NO ISSUES. And never a need for a backup camera. This is the absolute "can't fail" Scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n3tO1pEE1c&t=49s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79V7DdSWcqI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDigHy94oCI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6YwlT5il2A&t=1s

Remember, this is edited ( excluding the commercial) in 2 to 3 days for a same day delivery as the prize giving ceremony, which happens on the last day of racing.

Reds are reliable workhorses. Flexible to allow expressive footage taking. Usable in all scenarios, small and nimble when needed. And produce stunning results. If they can work flawlessly in such scenario, its obviously more than enough for any film shoot.

 

[Neil Abeynayake]

Well, all posts above have their merits. However when ARRI does this, you know the future camera appropriations are going to be in their favor.

Building designed to advance organization’s longstanding commitment to educating the next generation of filmmakers.

American Society of Cinematographers Breaks Ground on ARRI Educational Center

The American Society of Cinematographers (ASC) broke ground today on the construction of the new ASC ARRI Educational Center. The contemporary building, located behind the historic ASC Clubhouse in Hollywood, will serve as a hub for the organization’s ongoing efforts to educate the next generation of filmmakers on the art and craft of cinematography. The structure also will be home to all print and digital publications staff. The ASC ARRI Educational Center offers a modern, inspired space with offices and meeting rooms, and is slated to be completed in 2019.
From left, ASC President Kees van Oostrum and ARRI Inc. President and CEO Glenn Kennel at the groundbreaking ceremony.

ASC President Kees van Oostrum was joined by ARRI Inc. President and CEO Glenn Kennel for this momentous event.

“When the ASC was formed in 1919, our founding members pledged to foster and artistically inspire rising cinematographers,” says van Oostrum. “That mission has made us the society we are today. Through our members and initiatives, we have aggressively continued that edict. As we prepare to celebrate our 100th anniversary next year, the new ASC ARRI Educational Center symbolizes our commitment to the future and provides an excellent gathering place for the exchange of ideas.”

The educational center is made possible through the patronage of ARRI, a pioneering technology company that has a longstanding relationship with the ASC and its membership.

The question is, why didn't RED think something like this? It is still NOT too late, you could have another building for REDUcation right next to the training center. Better yet, donate a shit load of RED cameras to ASC and request to use them for training along with the ARRIs.:001_cool: