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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dear Jim

Modularity is a lure

Modularity is a lure

By proper experience (in software design) I know that modularity is a lure. The truth is that complex design without modularity is impossible and ALL cameras out there use a modular design. But that is in order to deal with complexity in the first place. As for sustainability, the modular structure has to mature first. From what I gather, Red ONE is a very nice and usable, yet beta product. To promise for a beta product that its modular structure makes "obsolescence obsolete" was an unkeepable promise and that is what disappoints some people.

By the way, what is the point in zillions of configurations for a manufacturer that has sold some 4000 cameras? Correct me if I am wrong, but I guess that most RED One owners use a similar core setup at least and I seriously wonder if those who have a different setup would have minded a standard bundle.

If you read through the forums, the really nice feature of the new design is the fact that you can put more or less any kind of optics in front of the sensors which was not really the case for RED One. THAT is the modularity which really matters (and what I really like about photography in general).
 
I fully support your post jtcoleman... and your words are exactly what I have in mind. I have read every post after yours and none come as clear and as sane as yours. I beleive many have expressed similarly.

And worry not, there are many who feel the same way. We are all on the same boat.. we aren't 1 or 2... we are in hundreds who feel the same way you feel. We together hope that the issue at hand will be resolved. If not, like you said... we will be quietly dissatisfied.
 
jtcoleman said:
...I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment....

Red #396
Click to expand...

With Red 396 I am sure (as Epics just start to come out) you can sell for not much of a loss...

I can hook you up with people that want Epics ASAP
 
jtcoleman said:
Jim, thank you for your comments.

To answer your question, no, the above scenario wouldn't obsolete the camera, but unfortunately it's isn't an accurate comparison to the actual situation. If the new upgraded version were available to new customers for less money, then yes, it would obsolete my purchase.

It's not the formats that I'm really concerned with. Unless the Scarlet is limited to 2k, which it appears not to be.

What really concerns me, what I feel is lacking in the R1, is the modularity. You guys have based your future line of products on a snappable hardware design that allows for easy, low cost upgrading over time. It's great, and I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment. Neither of those are good options for me, so I am left with the feeling that maybe I should have waited before making my purchase. I believe that many of your customers probably feel the same way.

Anyway, I have made my case as well as I can. If you do not believe my request is reasonable, then I guess I will live with that.

Thank you for your consideration.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396
Click to expand...

JT - doesn't what I suggested totally negate this problem? As a RED One owner, you are in a unique and advantageous position. You either get an upgraded RED ONE at no cost (which will be more flexible format-wise than a Scarlet) or you sell it to an would-be Epic owner (possibly at a profit if there's a long queue) and get your own Scarlet before anyone else.

I really don't see where the problem is. I'm starting to wonder if some people (not you, obviously) are trolling about this problem...

Ben
 
jeremyn said:
... in my current financial condition and staring down the barrel of very few to no rentals for an 'old' Red one...
Click to expand...

"old" is misused.... I can not see a time when the R1 would become obsolete or in less demand. In fact, demand is growing...

If your R1 isn't renting, chances stand that your Epic won't either.

Like everyone, I'm blown away/excited/eager to spend more cash. But it's too early to make decisions. Even if we could pay/receive now... Too many options, not enough info to make an informed decision of what to purchase and in what quantity.

Would love a Scarlet (which one??) to treat more like a still camera (with options)... certain aspects to the Epic would be great and the new accessories - do they work with the R1?

EPIC 617 - yes please....
 
beneditor said:
JT - doesn't what I suggested totally negate this problem? As a RED One owner, you are in a unique and advantageous position. You either get an upgraded RED ONE at no cost (which will be more flexible format-wise than a Scarlet) or you sell it to an would-be Epic owner (possibly at a profit if there's a long queue) and get your own Scarlet before anyone else.

I really don't see where the problem is. I'm starting to wonder if some people (not you, obviously) are trolling about this problem...

Ben
Click to expand...

You are right an obvious solution lies in selling your RED One camera now before its price is even more depreciated. I think the problem is that many people are now realizing this is a big money game and prior to these releases they were lead to believe they coud be on top for an affordable price... now they are casted out into low end Scarlet land. It would be cool if RED had made an Epic that was more affordable to upgrade to. Now it seems cine camera prices have reverted back to their lofty prices. The entire concept of Pro has changed. 4k is now mini-dv... lol... thats insane.

Another issue is that some people bought into high end accessories... like Oconnor tripods. They really don't need that stuff now. Yeah its a screwed up situation... who the heck thought that a Scarlet would have more features than R1?
 
jtcoleman said:
for my




Respectfully, I would like you to give serious consideration to allowing Red One customers to use this credit towards the purchase of a Scarlet S35 or FF35 and accessories. This one, simple change would resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction: your early adopters who cannot afford an Epic would be able to move onto the official "upgrade path" that RED is committed to, and continue to be a happy customers (purchasing upgrades whenever we can afford them) for many years to come.


Red #396 - Bumblebee
Click to expand...


I really respect your point of view.. But as far as allowing people to upgrade to the FF35 Please see below:

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

So I think that part of your request has already been dealt with

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
I really respect your point of view.. But as far as allowing people to upgrade to the FF35 Please see below:

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

So I think that part of your request has already been dealt with

Jay
Click to expand...

Hey Jay he's talking about the Scarlet line. Now that I think more of it... you guys looking to get a Scarlet should sell your RED Ones.. whats the issue? If you are looking at a no loss path... it doesn't exist. Even with a full value trade-in you would still take a hit on the cost of accessories you had purchased for the R1. This is not socialism here... the way I look at it RED is just a company like everyone else... cool damn company though... but they are not a socialist organization. They did foster a socialist environment for a while and heck it was cool... still is cool... but obsolescene obsolete is a bunch of crap... because the R1 has just been rendered obsolete (literally). Even the new modular stuff will be obsolete soon enough.

Soon nano particles will connect to the human optical system and people can go around making movies with their bodies... damn stabilization will be cool as hell. The Dynamic Range will be out of this world. I think we are hitting on Singularity.
 
Personally I always assumed the future-proof aspect to be that the Red One was a 4K camera (OK 3.2K really) and that in that sense it was future proofed since HD broadcast was lower than that and even most digital projection was beneath that. So until digital projection went higher than 4K (unlikely for a long time due to the expense of outfitting every screen in every cinema in the world) you had a nice little affordable future-proof camera.

There's obviously limitations in this...it's not future-proofed for ever, that would be ludicrous (and impossible), and "Obsolescence rendered obsolete" is similarly marketing speak and not absolute - but it does reflect an intention on Red's behalf to try and look after their customers in a way Sony or Panasonic wouldn't give a hoot about. Back when Red were at the original drawing board of the Red One when they were decried as makers of Vaporware I think it would've been unlikely for them to have stumbled on this fantastic, game-changing idea of modularity and upgradeability (realistically for your first product that would've been impossible). Now that they have though I think this really is a base for the true rendering obsolescence obsolete (for a few years at least), allowing you just to swap out or upgrade brains.

I loved the idea someone elsewhere had of buying a Scarlet FF35 (a steal at $12,000) for themselves and simply renting out an Epic FF35 brain for the odd high-end project (that is if all the accessories are transferable?).

I do feel sorry for Red One owners that feel let down and simply can't afford to upgrade but I would beg, borrow or steal to do this if I were them when the time comes. Failing that they still have a camera that is more than capable of shooting a Hollywood movie (see "Knowing" etc). In some ways Scarlet is an inferior camera compared to Red One (e.g. frame rates), in other ways it's better (Redcode 42, cheaper etc) but realistically it's a long way off (remember how Red One's delivery dates continually slipped?). Red One owners can go out tomorrow and shoot Hollywood-quality footage (just need to learn how to do the Hollywood quality lighting :wink:)
 
I think the whole problem comes from the s35MM and FF35MM Scarlet models.

Their price point and similarity with the REDOne makes them a threat to REDOne owners [who don't want to upgrade to EPIC].

And the possible limitations of frame sizes\fps\ramping makes these models a dubious choice for us low-end potential customers.

*

Just meditating amidst the storm.
 
Forgive me if this has been covered, I can't possibly get through the 200+ pages of posts since yesterday.

What I'm really looking for is an EPIC S35 upgrade from my R1 with Monstros Dynamic Range, instead of Mysterium X. Is there a tech reason that the smaller s35 sensor couldn't deliver this/ be made from the same stuff? For us R1 PL mount users, this is the perfect upgrade path! I feel like buying the FF35 is a waste as it crops all of my good glass, including my RED PL mount PRIMES when they get here.

Keep on truckin' Jim. My R1 rules planet earth.

Cal
 
karapetkov said:
I think the whole problem comes from the s35MM and FF35MM Scarlet models.

Their price point and similarity with the REDOne makes them a threat to REDOne owners [who don't want to upgrade to EPIC].

And the possible limitations of frame sizes\fps\ramping makes these models a dubious choice for us low-end potential customers.

*

Just meditating amidst the storm.
Click to expand...

Threat ain't the word... more like a smaller cheaper bully that manages to steal your lunch. Quite embarrassing for a bigger guy. At least they can consolate themselves by repeating in their heads that they were the first and special.
 
Go Jim
My R1 ships next week, am I disappointed, hell no! Happy to have the beast, better then any thing else on the market, great price point. I do not understand all of the issues, do all of the people complaining raise issues when Apple announces the next new Mac Book Pro, etc that will COST them money. Epic is a full credit upgrade, how can I lose, I get what I need now, go earn money, and in a year if I see a need I upgrade, if not, I do not, but either way I still have a kick ass camera that produces stunning images.

My fear is I cannot live up to the camera and shoot images worthy of the equipment.

Ron
 
ronbo3g said:
My fear is I cannot live up to the camera and shoot images worthy of the equipment.

Ron
Click to expand...

That's a good fear... lets hope you make money to afford a decent Epic. It seems many people before you have not.
 
jtcoleman said:
You guys have based your future line of products on a snappable hardware design that allows for easy, low cost upgrading over time. It's great, and I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment. Neither of those are good options for me, so I am left with the feeling that maybe I should have waited before making my purchase. I believe that many of your customers probably feel the same way.

Anyway, I have made my case as well as I can. If you do not believe my request is reasonable, then I guess I will live with that.
Click to expand...

I second this sentiment. This issue has nothing to do with RED ONE's performance, which every RED ONE owner agrees is fantastic, the stuff of dreams.

The future of RED is modularity, and an affordable pathway to modularity is not an unreasonable request. After spending $60K+ over the past six months on REDs and accessories, I don't feel like this is over-reaching.

I think we all want the chance to be able to participate in RED's future, without spending half again--or more--what we have already spent in an extremely short window of time.
 
planet e said:
I second this sentiment. This issue has nothing to do with RED ONE's performance, which every RED ONE owner agrees is fantastic, the stuff of dreams.

The future of RED is modularity, and an affordable pathway to modularity is not an unreasonable request. After spending $60K+ over the past six months on REDs and accessories, I don't feel like this is over-reaching.

I think we all want the chance to be able to participate in RED's future, without spending half again--or more--what we have already spent in an extremely short window of time.
Click to expand...

All RED ONE accessories (except top mounts) work with Scarlet and EPIC.

Jim
 
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