Dear Jim

[planet e]

What do you think would be fair (for both sides)?

Jim

I'd definitely be willing to pay for an interchangeable mount upgrade, if it is a possibility. Just as I would have paid for a Birger, if their customer service was up to snuff. I don't think this should go in the realm of a free upgrade. But acess to it would be amazing. I hope you can do this for the RED ONEs. That would be great news, the more RED ONE can participate in as many modular upgrades as possible, the better. Just as I will happily pay for a sensor upgrade. I don't think we should never have to pay for anything again -- and I think people interpreting these discussions that way are completely missing the point.

I can only speak for myself and am willing to pay for upgrades, but the $10K to get onboard the modularity train, 6 months after a $60K investment...just a little hard to swallow. But any ways in which you are willing to make RED ONE look and act like SCARLET/EPIC are welcome.

 

[Mark Pugh]

All RED ONE accessories (except top mounts) work with Scarlet and EPIC.

Jim

Red Drives?

 

[lubomir.zvolensky]

gentlemen, what about this:

a) you invested $60K in last 6 months in R1 and accessories. You have much better camera than you would have even if you invested $200K in Sony. Right? You have much more future, upgradability, possibilities, modularity and hey let's not forget FULL REFUND for your used/abused camera as trade-in value for completely fresh new EPIC. Isn't that alone enough?!?!?!?!?!??!

b) JT, you invested in your R1 and now you feel bashed, trashed and abandoned by RED. You put a lof of money to this business, you have a bank on your back. I fully understand, but... you could have probably TWO YEARS advantage before Epic materializes and is available. If you bought R1 say 12 months ago, you should ALREADY have it paid three times on your projects or rentals. Sorry to sound harsh, but you won't buy Ferrari for $150K and expect it to rent and/or "somehow" pay back alone. You have to have serious reason and dare to say business case for your investments. I have seen post of one member yesterday saying that his R1 bought four months ago is fully paid or almost fully paid now. Hmmmmmm that seems to be business case! He has ~ $30K back, he has fully working camera and accessories easily WORTH the same money, he has a dozen of options to upgrade/keep value/resell and downgrade to Scarlet. Not to mention that EPIC might have longer waiting queues that R1 had which will drive its price thru the roof... like we have seen with R1s, did we?

c) yes, we have heard a member here talking about fantastic upgrade possibilities of new cameras [reminder: NON-EXISTENT PRODUCTS at this time] and his month-ago-bought R1 which is locked and not upgradable the same way. Oh yes, products improve in many ways. Once again, you have perfect camera which should be able to pay itself back without troubles. You can't tell Canon "hey dammit, your Canon MV20 is not upgradable to HF21", can you? When you bought R1, you had clear situation and technical configuration of R1. Nothing of that changed. Now we got ABSOLUTE MEGABOMB with recent announcement and suddenly EVERYBODY sees their gear as OBSOLETE and ANCIENT. Oh yes! You have NEVER DREAMED of anything like that on Nov,12 and now... everything you have is archaic.

This is what makes obsolescence obsolete !! This is what RED brought to market as first manufacturer and this will be the main component of absolute success of this company !!


guys, sorry but all of these options sound JUST fantastic and never-heard-before. Sorry, will JVC/Sony/Pana honor your recent purchases IN ANY WAY and get you even stupid $99 discount on new warez? No, they will not. Did they ever? no, they did not. So... is RED better or not?


... so what are you moaning about at all? Take it this way, harsh, cruel but... this is life! How much value you lost on your home purchased 5 years ago? How much value you lost on your car purchased 5 years ago? Aha... Who will honor anything for you? Nobody.

gimme a second... RED will.

 

[fde101]

What do you think would be fair (for both sides)?

I was actually thinking more along the lines of, would they fit?

My guess is that it would be easier to fit them to the S35, maybe the FF35 models, but that some sort of adaptor unit might be needed?

You've been more than "fair" already, and I don't have a R1 so this doesn't impact me... I'm just curious from a technical standpoint on whether or not it would actually work across the different body/brain designs...

 

[planet e]

THIS IS WHAT MAKES OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE !! THIS IS WHAT RED BROUGHT TO MARKET AS FIRST MANUFACTURER AND THIS WILL BE THE MAIN COMPONENT OF ABSOLUTE SUCCESS OF THIS COMPANY !!

... so what are you moaning about at all?

Nobody's moaning, Lubomir...but you are certainly shouting. This is a reasonable discussion with a company that we know does its level best to listen. That is all.

 

[jtcoleman]

JT - doesn't what I suggested totally negate this problem? As a RED One owner, you are in a unique and advantageous position. You either get an upgraded RED ONE at no cost (which will be more flexible format-wise than a Scarlet) or you sell it to an would-be Epic owner (possibly at a profit if there's a long queue) and get your own Scarlet before anyone else.

I really don't see where the problem is. I'm starting to wonder if some people (not you, obviously) are trolling about this problem...

Ben

Hi Ben. Ha, no, I am not trolling, I promise.

Your point is valid, but only if we allow for a big assumption: that the demand for immediate purchase of Epics (i.e. people not willing to wait) will be so high that I can sell my camera to someone else at a reasonable loss.

If you look beneath the covers of that suggestion, it seems to indicate that the key value lies not in my camera, but in my place in line. (That's a frightening thought!)

So what if your assumption is wrong?

What if...

- a bunch of people try what you are suggesting and we overflow demand with a flood of used R1s? or,
- the market for Epics ends up smaller than the market for R1s (as is often the case, higher cost products = smaller markets)? or,
- with a generation of cameras now behind them, RED can scale up the production of Epics quickly enough to meet demand?

If any of these are true, then my place in line has little value. And my R1 is stuck in between the two markets: pros will still want Epics, and prosumers will go for Scarlets. The resell and rental market for R1s would bottom out.

Where would that leave me? With a great camera, true. But I didn't just buy a great camera: i bought a modular, upgradable camera system that I assumed I could grow with, at least for a few years. And that upgrade path *is* available. But unless I can sell my R1 to a third party, I won't be able to enjoy it.

(By the way, what you are offering is banking on a third party transaction in which RED isn't even involved. One might as easily say, "JT, go make more money, and then you won't care about the lost value in your R1." That's true, but it's also a bit tangential to my point.)

This is a big purchase, and I don't think it's inappropriate for me to raise my hand and say "guys, I'm a bit disgruntled. Would you consider doing XYZ to make it right?" A lot of the responses here are coming from people who aren't in my position. Besides the obvious question ("Umm, why do you care if RED offers customers like me an upgrade path?"), I have remind myself that most of the posters are not in my shoes. I certainly wouldn't care as much if I wasn't the one staring down the $25,000 barrel. and for those who *are* in my shoes, and don't care, wow... I envy them. If I could afford an Epic, I probably wouldn't care, either.

What I'm hoping is that RED would realize the value of their early adopters, and allow us a mechanism to convert over to the new upgrade path without having to come up with another large outlay of cash. Allowing us to credit our camera towards the upper end Scarlet models would do it. I promise you, I would still end up spending more money to jump over. Yea, in the short term, it may not be as profitable. In the long term, though, you are keeping your early adopters satisfied, and reinforcing your base of consumer evangelists. Don't underestimate the value of that! It's not just the right thing to do, it's also good business.

I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from, Ben. Sorry for the long winded reply, and thanks to everyone for keeping this thread reasonably civil. it's refreshing.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
RED #396

ps. btw, I am open to ideas on this. It doesn't have to be a 100% credit --- I recognize that my camera is used, and should have a reasonable amount of depreciated for the months that I have owned it. And I don't mind paying more money over time to keep abreast of technology. I certainly don't expect my camera to retain all of it's value; I just don't want to see the bottom fall out of my investment.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

One thing that I'm noticing is that,.. if you think about it:

Epic actually is the upgrade for a REDOne... It's a 10k $ difference [with the full trade-in and the lowest Epic].

Even if fundamental upgrades were to be offered for the *old* REDOne body, I don't think the price would be much different.

MysteriumX + 5K@100fps + higher\better compression and what not... these things are not cheap. R&D, better boards and stuff...

So, if I was a REDOne owner, I wouldn`t be bothered by the upgrade path to Epic. The full trade-in is unprecedented practice, the price seems right and Epic actually is the upgrade. I think that the *render obsolescence obsolete* promise is kept here.

And also, I don't see Epics really shipping before the end of 2009.

*
But OTOH, if I was a REDOne owner, I would be a little worried about the S35mm and FF35mm Scarlets.

Especially the S35mm Scarlet, expected to ship earliest.

What if I was a REDOne owner and I don't want to upgrade or what if I simply can't.

Limited or not, the S35MM Scarlet is an improved REDOne body for 7k $.

*
And being a potential low-end customer, I'm yet to be convinced that these limitations are "real".

We gotta see that full chart that they're preparing and I think this should happen real soon, as people are worried.

These upper Scarlet models seem to be confusing everybody, high and low.

It can't wait for the 13th of January, IMHO.

 

[lubomir.zvolensky]

oh let me apologize for that, I didn't mean to shout at all. I will edit my capitals immediately.

Just wanted to put small accent my fuzzy feeling that some individuals are not satisfied with current situation got me to this. This is understandable because we are speaking about lots of money here and in current global situation everybody has to be very very careful - but still, we have several unprecedented "gimmicks" here. I also wanted to see $3K 3K Scarlet at first, maybe it will be $4K in the final, maybe less...

anyway, thank you RED! You show you care about your customers. And that's very important.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

How much value you lost on your home purchased 5 years ago? How much value you lost on your car purchased 5 years ago? Aha... Who will honor anything for you? Nobody.

gimme a second... RED WILL.

The camera is not a home.. its a purchase most of us made and is not even out of warranty.. yet already out of date.


btw.. RED is is gracious and have done alot to bring us a camera of this caliber.
its just hard for me to swallow all of this, when im still paying down my gear:/

 

[jtcoleman]

JT, do you feel better today?
Best regards
Brice

Well, I'm certainly pleased that (for the most part) the thread has stayed positive and reasonable. So that's nice. I kind of get the feeling some people are replying to the thread without actually reading my original post, though, because they seem to think I'm asking for a free ride. I'm not, and I never was.

As for the rental market, I just have to hope I can get some more projects in before RED gets the second generation of cameras out the door. I really don't see how I could afford an Epic, and evidently I'm the only owner/operator in the world who is nowhere near breakeven on my equipment rentals. I guess I'm crappy at marketing, or something, because everyone else seems to be making a killing. Most of the calls that I get are from indies looking to borrow a camera, not rent one. (with a few exceptions, of course, who are my best friends in the entire world.)

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396
RedAustin.com

 

[lubomir.zvolensky]

right, that was exaggerated a bit.


R1 could be seen as computers, ubercool $2000 quadro graphic cards, quad-core $1000 EE processors, plazma TVs... they depreciate in value very fast. Oh yes, the absolute value is different.

What I'm very very curious is how the market will change. IF canon/sony/pana will be adopting anytime soon. Then, RED is placed into chronicles and set in stone.

 

[zergtherobot]

I don't even know if scarlet is a better camera then RED. No on is sure if it has variable frame rates with a s35 sensor. It may only be able to shoot 30 or under at 5k. Nothing more at no resolution less. If that's the case then RED purposely limited Scarlet in order to protect RED ONE owners...plus at this point in time, im going to say it, it's all vaporware. None of this is real, they say it will be, but it's not. Time will tell the direction they are going in. For me however, if a $7000 dollar brain cant shoot more then 30fps that is an instant deal breaker. I would also never want to shoot 5k...whats the point. Most of my stuff goes to web and sometimes television, SD television at that. So I think RED needs to be a little more specific on a few things before anyone starts getting the panties in a bunch.

 

[jtcoleman]

That's a really valid point, zerg. I'm happy to give RED the benefit of the doubt, and wait to see what happens.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396
RedAustin.com

 

[Buck Forester]

I wish Sony would give me full purchase credit for my EX1 ($6,500) if I wanted to upgrade to their PDW-700 XDCAM HD ($29,800). Or allow me an upgrade option to the next generaton CMOS chips when they come out with their next model so I wouldn't have to buy a whole new camera to get them.

 

[S. Um]

I wish Sony would give me full purchase credit for my EX1 ($6,500) if I wanted to upgrade to their PDW-700 XDCAM HD ($29,800). Or allow me an upgrade option to the next generaton CMOS chips when they come out with their next model so I wouldn't have to buy a whole new camera to get them.

Good point Buck!

When Red originally said they would render obsolescence obsolete, my understanding was that they would allow upgrades to the sensor. And they are honoring that. But Red is an innovative company, and it's only a matter of time before they come out with something new.

Red One owners have had some time to make money from their investment. Even when Scarlet and Epic come out, 4k will not suddenly go out of style, so those owners can continue to make money from their investment (Just like HD didn't suddenly replace SD). Just because they don't have the latest technology doesn't mean their camera is obsolete. And since display technology hasn't quite caught up yet, most Red owners (including Scarlet and Epic owners) will probably deliver their work in 2k or smaller sizes for some time to come.

And finally, just because Red said that they would render obsolescence obsolete, it doesn't mean that they would do it for free. Nor should owners expect this. I think Red has been more than generous with their upgrades so far: free body replacements for #1-100, free sound card replacements, free flash reader upgrades, continuous firmware upgrades, etc. If Red One owners want to upgrade their sensors, they can do so for a fee. If they want to upgrade to Epic, they can exchange the body for $17.5k credit. If they want to "upgrade" to Scarlet, then they can buy the body for 12% off. Most of their original investment in accessories, such as lenses, viewfinders, recording media, etc., are not "obsolete" and they can still continue to use them.

Yes, it can be painful when the next generation of products come out. But let's face it - it happens with every company, and Red is actually treating its customers much better than any other camera company does.

 

[lubomir.zvolensky]

absolutely correct!

 

[Sam Roberts]

The problem was never the EPIC, we knew it would be more sophisticated and expensive. It is the price point blending (almost) below the RED One in the form of a far more professional grade, feature rich camera than was expected, that has people freaking out. A "down" upgrade trade is really something worth considering.

R1 owners never expected upgrades for life but we did expect a little more price/feature mileage between us and the two new models.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

First of all, Jim Jannard has done more to advance the art and technology of the professional moving image and get it into the hands of the broadest cross-section of filmmakers since Thomas Edison. Jim, I applaud you and your team for this amazing capability and the price at which you are offering it for sale. Thank you.

The system introduced yesterday is the right system, in the right configuration, for the right price-points. Anyone who can afford a used car can produce professional moving images for any application, or soon will. For someone who has the resources to chuck this whole program into a dumpster and wear a rut in some golf course for the rest of his days, Jim has been a tireless innovator and inventor and we've all benefitted from it. In fact, even the biggest detractors of Red are poised to gain financially from Red technology whether they like it or not.

The underlying problem here is not Red's policies or promises. The problem is there has been a fundamental change in the global economic picture that has been and still is impacting the market conditions facing Red owners. The business models the Red owners relied upon when making their decision to buy is facing very real pressure from the freezing of the credit markets and the impact that freeze is having on production budgets. Another huge force in Hollywood is the defacto uncertainty the Actor's threatened strike has had on pending productions. Still another huge obstacle that Red owners face is the concerted effort being leveraged by Jim's competitors to undermine the Red by focusing on "workflow" issues. So, at this moment in history, the average Red owner is under siege on three fronts: The global economy, Unresolved labor disputes and a FUD campaign.

While it can be argued that given Jim's resources, Red Digital Cinema, Inc. may be largely insulated from these forces, the simple fact of the matter is that his customers are not.

I think we should consider the fact that by the time a decision must be made regarding upgrades and Red's policies, it is entirely likely that at least two of these three factors may be resolved, or at the very least mitigated. The unresolved SAG contract is very likely to be resolved in the coming weeks which should loosen the production sector. The workflow issues are being addressed and believe it or not, the Scarlet and Epic announcement may have just goosed that effort into high gear. So workflow issues and the effects of the FUD campaign will lessen in the coming months.

The global economy will begin to stabilize and confidence will return to the markets. Even if that process takes longer than expected, it can create conditions favorable to Red owners by putting even more pressure on budgets. While the Post industry will bear the brunt of a contraction of money, Digital cameras will fill the positions vacated by expensive and inefficient film cameras. Post houses that cater to Red and cameras like it will survive but only after a shake-out that will see a shrinking of capacity in Post facilities across the board.

These last two years have seen booming times in Independent films, and this has created a glut of films in the market. This boom in production has fueled the industry and provided opportunities for Post Production facilities to thrive. However, the available funds for Indies has seen a contraction as the available capital has shrunk. The glut of films coupled with the loss of over $100 billion in the hedge fund market means that fewer and fewer low-budget films will be made over the next two years or so.

The available supply of Reds coupled with the pressures facing long-form content should give rise to a very robust global surge in short-form content. I see Red Owners in the best position to ride this wave. Since Red footage can be shot, edited, and even finished on an Apple desktop, Red does not require expensive HD decks, custom P2 card readers or anything more elaborate than a modest RAID (if that), anyone with an idea can shoot 35mm and come out of the economic wilderness in a year or two with marketable content.

It's tough out there, no doubt. But the idea that the Red One is now obsolete is a non-starter. The Red One is more relevant now than when you put down your deposit. IMHO.

 

[TallGuy]

I can not see a time when the R1 would become obsolete or in less demand.

Wow. Quoted to preserve this belief.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Let me add an idea...

I will buy an Epic FF35 in the box untouched for what it worth exactly if I buy it from RED... so a REDONE owner can trade his REDONE with RED and buy with his rebate a typical configuration, sell it to me and get a scarlet minus 12%...

So he will get from me the 17.5K$ and he will buy a Scarlet FF35 for less...

How about that?

Don't panic, there are many ways to take your money back...