Dear Jim

[Jannard]

JT,

Well spoken JT. I'm in exactly the same position with the same opinion. While the RED One has certainly exceeded my expectations from when I put my money down on so long ago at NAB. And I'm unbearably excited about the new cameras, I agree, I don't think the promise of obsoleting obsolescence was kept. Because I felt I could grow with the camera and stay competitive, I bought my camera on a 3 year lease, and planned to pay that back on the same schedule. Now here I am with 2 years left in my lease, no possible way to upgrade to Epic and staring down the barrel of very few to no rentals for an 'old' Red one. Scary to say the least.

Sorry... doesn't make any sense. If we only had a RED ONE upgrade to offer, and you couldn't afford it, would your un-upgraded RED ONE be obsolete?

A Scarlet will not be as useful as a RED ONE.

Jim

 

[Luca Immesi]

Scarlet will NOT have all the capabilities of a RED ONE. It can't given the size constraints of the boards in the "brain". If you want flexibility and choices... upgrade your RED ONE or upgrade to an EPIC. n
Jim

Ok, now I understand.

 

[Nick Wolf]

JJ...

Have you begun meditating or yoga or something? I cannot believe the level of grace with which you address the unfounded wave of panic...Nerves of steel.



DogDay.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

Scarlet will NOT have all the capabilities of a RED ONE. It can't given the size constraints of the boards in the "brain". If you want flexibility and choices... upgrade your RED ONE or upgrade to an EPIC.

Jim

Okay, so propogating the idea that you'll be able to get an S35 Sized Scarlet and shoot 4k and 3k as well isn't accurate?

 

[Jeremy Neish]

Sorry... doesn't make any sense. If we only had a RED ONE upgrade to offer, and you couldn't afford it, would your un-upgraded RED ONE be obsolete?

A Scarlet will not be as useful as a RED ONE.

Jim

Hi Jim, thank you for your reply. I hadn't read your comment about the format advantages of Red 1 over Scarlet before I posted. That is something I hadn't realized. The more I think about it the more I realize that either a Red One upgrade or Epic S35 will be my best way to deal with the this new Red future.

Thanks to your clarification, I now recognize that Scarlet S35 is 'NOT' the new R1. I feel a bit better now, and assuming you are still planning to allow upgrades in the original order, I will have the advantage of getting one of the first Epics... Anyway, I didn't mean to put a damper on today's announcements, I'm excited beyond words. Now I just need to make the numbers work.

 

[Jannard]

Okay, so propogating the idea that you'll be able to get an S35 Sized Scarlet and shoot 4k and 3k as well isn't accurate?

I am not going to answer a thousand "does it do this or that" now. When we are ready to release full specs, we will. There is plenty of time before you have to make a decision. In the meantime, Scarlet has limited options, RED ONE has many options, EPIC has many more options.

Jim

 

[Jannard]

Hi Jim, thank you for your reply. I hadn't read your comment about the format advantages of Red 1 over Scarlet before I posted. That is something I hadn't realized. The more I think about it the more I realize that either a Red One upgrade or Epic S35 will be my best way to deal with the this new Red future.

Thanks to your clarification, I now recognize that Scarlet S35 is 'NOT' the new R1. I feel a bit better now, and assuming you are still planning to allow upgrades in the original order, I will have the advantage of getting one of the first Epics... Anyway, I didn't mean to put a damper on today's announcements, I'm excited beyond words. Now I just need to make the numbers work.

No problem... we should have been more clear last night. We value you as a customer and will accommodate you the best we can.

Jim

 

[Kholi Hicks]

I am not going to answer a thousand "does it do this or that" now. When we are ready to release full specs, we will. There is plenty of time before you have to make a decision. In the meantime, Scarlet has limited options, RED ONE has many options, EPIC has many more options.

Jim

With all due respect, isn't that just a basic question that isn't made clear in your promo? There are several people thinking you're limited to 5k @ 30P and if you want to get 3K @ 120FPS you need to get a 2/3" body?

I guess it's tough to clear up such basic confusion...

 

[Johan Pabon]

The situation now reminds me of the moment that Epic and Scarlet were announced in the first place. Everybody got confused. Jim specifically asked people to quiet down, he had a nice term for that, and I felt he was right.
I've been thinking of the new opportunities now... and I must say there are two sides. There is a generous offer to upgrade to Epic, on the other hand we have to be carefull with our money. You warned us to be carefull Jim, and I fully agree on that.
As a productioncompany I feel I should invest in the best equipment I can. On the other hand be carefull, have your own company and make sure it does not belong to the bank...
Be sure of your own freedom and keep enough financial space to be creative.
Now I feel there is a need to upgrade. To be perfectly honest, I don't know if it's wise to do that. Apart from that epic and scarlet are huge improvements.

 

[Kevin Wild]

Gosh, I know people on these boards want the latest and greatest, but keep in mind that you have already purchased a camera capable of making motion pictures...

Personally, I feel that RED is putting too much importance on resolution. How many people here seriously need more than 4K?? We have yet to finish a project in 4K yet...everything down to HD and then most down to SD, but that's us.

So, I am excited about the future products, but it's not because RED is going to someday make a sensor the size of a truck and that every frame will take a GIG to store...nope. I'm quite happy with 4K. I am excited about the improvements in weight, size, audio connectors...real functional things. Obviously, picture quality/dynamic range matters...but the RED One is already excellent. We will upgrade to the 5K Epic so we can get the Version 2 of the camera, but knowing full well that the picture on the RED One is absolutely more than adequate now.

Again, it's easy to overreact on days of new announcements like this. But keep in mind that 2 days ago everyone was bragging that you had a camera in which 30 Hollywood films were using...and Peter Jackson...and Steven S...and la, la, la.

And I will continue to end nearly every posting with...I just hope RED puts as much energy into the POST PRODUCTION solutions as they do the camera, because the camera is only HALF of this game... RED Cine, RED Alert, RED Rushes...all have bugs or serious limitations that need to be worked out, hopefully soon.

My $.02.

 

[Johan Pabon]

My $.02. Awfull term, but you're right. I don't worry about 4K or 5 or....It's some other things like choice of lenses and maybe a better noise reduction with the new sensor.
And of course: Postproduction! We need better solutions for post.

 

[Ben Holmes]

why would they buy a used one from you instead of buying a new one from RED?

Because RED ONE owners get first in the (probably very long) queue for an Epic. Try to keep up at the back....

Ben

 

[jtcoleman]

Sorry... doesn't make any sense. If we only had a RED ONE upgrade to offer, and you couldn't afford it, would your un-upgraded RED ONE be obsolete?

A Scarlet will not be as useful as a RED ONE.

Jim

Jim, thank you for your comments.

To answer your question, no, the above scenario wouldn't obsolete the camera, but unfortunately it's isn't an accurate comparison to the actual situation. If the new upgraded version were available to new customers for less money, then yes, it would obsolete my purchase.

It's not the formats that I'm really concerned with. Unless the Scarlet is limited to 2k, which it appears not to be.

What really concerns me, what I feel is lacking in the R1, is the modularity. You guys have based your future line of products on a snappable hardware design that allows for easy, low cost upgrading over time. It's great, and I am disappointed that I cannot be a part of that without either 1. selling my camera at a sizeable loss, or 2. doubling the amount of my investment. Neither of those are good options for me, so I am left with the feeling that maybe I should have waited before making my purchase. I believe that many of your customers probably feel the same way.

Anyway, I have made my case as well as I can. If you do not believe my request is reasonable, then I guess I will live with that.

Thank you for your consideration.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas
Red #396

 

[Tico Llaurador]

I don't think the RED One will stop producing the same pretty pictures (if not better) than it did when you fist purchased it.

So... what are you really complaining about?

:glare:

 

[conrad gaunt]

I fully respect your point of view

Me too.

I don't think the RED One will stop producing the same pretty pictures (if not better) than it did when you fist purchased it.

So... what are you really complaining about?

:glare:

No brain upgrade=no upgrade.
Build16, too often (scroll to right):


edit: ok, I probably have a hardware fault, hence bad images. If they go, that'll be better. Still shame about processor NOUPGRADES

 

[Buck Forester]

I have no skin in the game yet (will strongly consider Scarlet when the time comes), but I'm under the assumption that people buying the original RED ONE are not hobbyists, unless they have lots of moolah to burn. It seems to be a professional working camera where hopefully one can create footage/flicks for money.

Just know, you R1 owners, that you currently own cameras that guys like myself drool over, and that hasn't changed. The same dreams you had when you bought the camera are still there, the camera isn't old or obsolete by any stretch of the imagination. We all know we can't look at the equipment itself as an appreciating asset or even an asset that will hold it's value... technological gear itself is a lousy freaking investment... it's what you can do with it that is the 'real' investment in this stuff.

What you can do with the RED ONE hasn't changed since last year or the year before, even without the upgrades. I couldn't afford a RED ONE so I bought a Sony EX1. I know in a year or two it's value will probably be halved, or more. And it's not upgradeable. But the footage it creates is still amazing to me. The RED ONE is still the king for the price/specs, and upgradeable like few cameras are. I know how it is, it's easy to let new technological announcements seem like you now have less, but it's all perception. Perception is merely a state of mind and it can cloud your enthusiasm.

As it was said earlier, when/if I get my Scarlet next year, I'm pretty sure in a couple years there will be some sort of jump in technology that will alter things to the point a new base module will have to be built, not making the Scarlet obsolete, but putting it on a upgradeable path that is different than the next generation model. That's just the nature of the beast and is out of the control of companies. I mean, really, how many years do you think even a modular system created in 2009 can last in such a quickly technologically advancing world? As long as RED doesn't abandon previous generations, which I don't think they would do, things will always change. Okay, go ahead and start throwing the tomatoes, I'm ready.

 

[SalaTar]

that is a POS shot for sure

 

[SalaTar]

that is a POS shot for sure splitscreen decomp issues and all

 

[Sean]

Maybe some of the discomfort experienced today by Red One owners stems from (a) owning a camera that only came out of official beta fairly recently--and many argue is still in beta; and (b) it sounds like the only way to achieve the results that we are still striving for--because no one will admit we're there yet--is to upgrade to a much more expensive camera.

I think it "feels" like Red One is abandoned, but yet we still have to get our audio board swapped out for one that allows us to use a professional mic with phantom power. And we're still struggling with workflows--no audio on PC yet. It "feels" so early in the game to be focusing so much marketing energy on the next great camera. Of course, in every company's secret lab they're working on the next invention to change the world. But it's hard to hear about it when you're still struggling to get the first locomotive running.

Jim says he isn't abandoning Red. I'm sure it's near and dear to his heart. And indeed, there may be incredibly persuasive reasons to really abandon it. But it feels like that. Maybe it's just optics--isn't it always just optics. And timing. Definitely timing.

 

[Ariana]

Exactly. That's what this thread is about. No matter how you slice it, twist it, or spin it, Red has betrayed its mantra and as far as I'm concerned driven a steel spike through their credibility. Frankly I don't trust them any more.

Oh bullshit. 100% credit is betrayal? Your are an insult to the customers that actually paid for cameras and appreciate what Jim is offering. Jim did not promise free upgrade for the rest of your life or even at cost upgrades, yet he's taking back the camera you beat the crap out of for two years, and giveing you an awesome deal to step up to one 3x as powerful for half the cost of your original purchase.

I think another poster said it very nicely:

Pretend for a moment that Scarlet and Epic don't exist..

This is the way I see it: when you buy a Red One, you know what it can do, and what it is used for. You buy that camera for a specific purpose. You are promised that it will be upgradable. You receive free firmware updates that drastically improve the performance of your camera. New sensors are developed, and you are given the option of upgrading your sensor for a fee...

The fact that your camera is upgradable and the fact that it is still tirelessly updated, improved, and supported completely and totally fulfills Jim's promise.

Now Scarlet and Epic have entered the picture. Has anything about Jim's promise to you changed? YES.

Not only are you able to upgrade both hardware and firmware, you ALSO get a discount on the new products. You are ALSO first in line everytime for anything.

And if you want out: You can take every penny you put into your Red One into something better (EPIC).

You are right. Jim did not keep his promise: he changed it and made it better.

I can understand drooling over the new toys, but guess what? You have a camera NOW. You can take your camera, and make wonderful things with it, while the rest of us not only wait for the other cameras to come to fruition, we will also be waiting in line after YOU.

If I had had the money at the time, you had better believe I would have been an early adopter. That is the only time I have ever seen being an early adopter pays off. You guys are treated like royalty.

I am not trying to be preachy, I just want to give my perspective. Be happy! It is a wonderful time to be a filmmaker! :}