DaVinci

[Cüneyt Kaya]

SCRATCH does have GPU debayering for other cameras. R3D material is strictly CPU + Red Rocket.

This is not a limitation of R3D or of any other camera. It is determined by what is the best and most efficient processing for a particular set of requirements.

Best,

Lucas


Lucas Wilson
------------
Director, Business Development
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

thanks for the clarification

 

[jake blackstone]

SCRATCH does have GPU debayering for other cameras. R3D material is strictly CPU + Red Rocket.

This is not a limitation of R3D or of any other camera. It is determined by what is the best and most efficient processing for a particular set of requirements.

Best,

Lucas


Lucas Wilson
------------
Director, Business Development
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Lucas.
Thanks for clarification.
I just wonder, if to your knowledge, the way Scratch performs the debayer this way is it because it's the most efficient way to do it or it's some other reason, like may be an SDK restriction? Does Adobe Premiere debayers with CPU or GPU? I'm just wondering, if it's a matter of time, before GPU debayer goes mainstream or there are some fundamental limitations preventing this from happening in the near future?

 

[jake blackstone]

But Jake... how many Mac version users wanna spend another $4750 for Red Rocket card?

Choice is always good.
I'm not planning to buy it, some other, given a choice, might...
And then, majority of those Mac users may never need the SDI output, hence there is no need to spend an extra $995 for the Decklink Extreme HD card. Why not just use the HDMI or dual DVI directly from GTX 285 card? I'm willing to pay a little extra for the software to avoid $995 charge for the unnecessary card and in the process, to end up with an extra free slot in my computer.

 

[Torrey Loomis]

I saw an earlier post requesting specifics on system specs:

http://bit.ly/bfXJpA

These are current now--but--subject to change at anytime. And most likely will.

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
torrey@silverado.cc
Web http://www.Silverado.cc
Blog http://silveradosys.blogspot.com
Twitter http://www.twitter.com/silveradosys

 

[jake blackstone]

I saw an earlier post requesting specifics on system specs:

http://bit.ly/bfXJpA

These are current now--but--subject to change at anytime. And most likely will.

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
torrey@silverado.cc
Web http://www.Silverado.cc
Blog http://silveradosys.blogspot.com
Twitter http://www.twitter.com/silveradosys

Hi Torrey.
I see, that Nvidia Quadro FX4800 is the only card listed for the GPU? Rahit Gupta at NAB, Peter Chambers on this forum and Grant Petty himself in the interview all had said, that GTX 285 will be an acceptable GPU card. Has this changed?

 

[Torrey Loomis]

GTX 285 will work fine, it just wasn't on the list I got.

Its quite possible that neither the 4800 or the 285 will be the card of choice when this starts shipping.

Tor

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Well, there is a way to free up a slot, but from talking with BMD engineers I got the impression they weren't really interested in that idea. The idea is to NOT use the required BMD card for the SDI output. I pointed out, that majority of Mac version users will have no need for SDI output and they will be happy with just HDMI or even dual DVI output directly from GPU, just like any other color grading systems. But, I guess, that would mean, that BMD will not be able to sell you additional hardware. I would even be willing to pay a premium for HDMI version, if that meant, that I could plug in the RedRocket. Are you Peter listening?

The problem here is all the output coming from the Apple GDI or out of either nVidia card in the system will only be 8-bit. Even if you use a card that has DisplayPort or HDMI. It would be great if there was software support to connect the SDI option to the Quadro card on the Mac, but there isn't. And even if there was, the Quadro SDI option still occupies another slot space and costs more than the BlackMagic card... For anyone doing any serious color grading work with this tool, they will NEED 10bit SDI or HDMI output from the BlackMagic card. Sure, you can get pretty close to your desired result running 8bit out via the nVidia cards, but that's just not as good as it could be.

But Jake... how many Mac version users wanna spend another $4750 for Red Rocket card?

Lots of Mac owners looking at DaVinci already own a RED Rocket. I'm hoping they move to support it as an option and perhaps even an alternative to using the BlackMagic card for those who will be working primarily with RED footage.

GTX 285 will work fine, it just wasn't on the list I got.

Its quite possible that neither the 4800 or the 285 will be the card of choice when this starts shipping.

We shall see. I'm assuming the 285 works -- they said at NAB it should work by the time the software ships and possibly a few others will be supported to. Obviously, they will have to support future cards as they become available on the Mac platform. At the time only the 4800 was fully implemented. One thing that would REALLY help would be if they could allow us the option of taking a GPU performance hit while operating off the graphics card/GPU being used. Having both a 4800 or 285 in the system along with a smaller GT120 or 160 for display is painful when there's only 4 slots to work with. Technically the software does not need the additional video card or GPU, but I was told that not having a dedicated GPU (no display output), disables GPU functionality entirely. They were saying as an example, the software would run on a Mac Pro with only one graphics card or even a Macbook Pro or an iMac, but they didn't recommend it.

 

[Shane Betts]

Unless I'm wrong, it's going to ultimately come down to CUDA cores. Sure, BMD/Davinci will need to approve individual cards but the number of cores will govern the speed. I'm told they're doing more than 10 layers in real time at HD right now and that's going to improve as graphics cards do (yes, you have to render out but your working speed is amazing at this price point).

On the slots question, don't forget that your Mac Pro has space available for 6TB of storage internally, so you could possibly do without a FC card. If Apple actually have the sense to include USB3 in the new Mac Pros, then BMD have solutions there, saving another slot. Even at current specs, it's possible then to run perhaps three GPU cards internally, two of them at 8 lanes. It's probably too much to expect Apple to provide a more reasonable number of slots :angry: but they did improve the lane configuration last revision. Hopefully they do that again next time around. And, even if Apple don't go USB3, some USB3 cards (there has to be some Mac ones coming) will run on a single lane so you could put one in the remaining (slow) lane (a Decklink requires 4x) and still get HDSDI/HDMI monitoring out with an UltraStudio.

And, of course, if you must work off a SAN, you need more than 6TB of storage for your grade, you're monitoring in 2k or you really must work in 4k real time, then you can upgrade to the Linux version.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Unless I'm wrong, it's going to ultimately come down to CUDA cores. ... On the slots question, don't forget that your Mac Pro has space available for 6TB of storage internally, ... then to run perhaps three GPU cards internally, two of them at 8 lanes. It's probably too much to expect Apple to provide a more reasonable number of slots

The problem here is all the output coming from the Apple GDI or out of either nVidia card in the system will only be 8-bit.

A couple of things to think about as well...

1) Jeff - want to clarify that this is not true on Win7 systems. SCRATCH outputs true 10-bit out DisplayPort to either the DreamColor or Eizo monitors - both of which support 10-bit on DisplayPort input.

2) Regardless of the number of cores in one machine, keep in mind that bus speed on that machine will naturally limit some performance. If there are multiple cards moving around 4K or 2x4K (stereo) data... along with storage read/write, memory read/write, etc., there will be a logjam somewhere pretty fast. Our hardware partners have had to work hard on intelligent hardware configs for the correct mobo/BIOS/slots/OS switches to support dual RR cards + fiber card + pro audio card + NVidia SDI card... and maintain consistent realtime performance for single or dual-stream R3D playback. It's non-trivial.

Best,

Lucas

 

[Shane Betts]

Absolutely Lucas, just basically saying there's more than one way to skin a cat. Linux would be another, Scratch another and Apple turning the clock back about ten years and giving us an appropriate number of slots would be good.

 

[Torrey Loomis]

Apple turning the clock back about ten years and giving us an appropriate number of slots would be good.

I'll say amen to that...



TL

 

[roryhinds]

I too wish Apple will listen but the reality is they are too large a company now and their focus is solely on iToys.

I believe my next Mac will be a EFI Hackintosh, with the amount of slots I need.
This will allow me to dual boot into Linux and slowly make the cross over if needed.
The G5/Mac Pro tower case is how old already?
OS X is great but the hardware is restrictive and lack of pro graphics well is just plain boring now.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

A couple of things to think about as well...

1) Jeff - want to clarify that this is not true on Win7 systems. SCRATCH outputs true 10-bit out DisplayPort to either the DreamColor or Eizo monitors - both of which support 10-bit on DisplayPort input.

True. Lots more options and graphics abilities in Windows land. But this was a thread about DaVinci on the Mac.

2) Regardless of the number of cores in one machine, keep in mind that bus speed on that machine will naturally limit some performance. If there are multiple cards moving around 4K or 2x4K (stereo) data... along with storage read/write, memory read/write, etc., there will be a logjam somewhere pretty fast. Our hardware partners have had to work hard on intelligent hardware configs for the correct mobo/BIOS/slots/OS switches to support dual RR cards + fiber card + pro audio card + NVidia SDI card... and maintain consistent realtime performance for single or dual-stream R3D playback. It's non-trivial.

True. And that is no small task. The last three revisions of the Intel SouthBridge chipsets only allow for 40 lanes on the PCI-E bus. People like to bash Apple over only having 4 slots, and yes this is restrictive, but with two X16 slots and two X4 slots, they have used up the entire PCI-E bus. In the PC world, once again, there are more options. But the only ways to go beyond the 40 available lanes of PCI-E goodness is to go with a motherboard that offers multiple PCI-E hosts. And those have their own share of problems/issues. The upcoming Intel chipset (due real soon now) doubles the PCI-E host bandwidth and available lanes.

 

[Peter Chamberlain]

Small update: GTX285 was shown at NAB and for many of our demos but is now EOL by NVidia so the FX4800 is on the current build list for image processing. IF you have a GTX285, that works but does consume more power and two of two power connections!
GT120 is required for GUI monitor, and it does a bunch of other smart things. We have done some tests with one GPU card, and on 17" MacBookPro - for MacPro we spec the FX4800 (or GTX285) and GT120 as required items. Let's leave it at that for now.
DeckLink Extreme 3 or 3D for video I/O and deck control. Apple Raid card for internal storage or Atto FC with Xsan2 for SAN use. Also testing a number of other storage solutions. Most working very well. Details later.
I now have Resolve running on the current MacPro with dual Quad core 2.26GHz CPU's as this is the standard available on the Apple store. No issues found to date except long delivery times. CPU/Bus speeds etc. and power availability restrict performance on the older 2008 MacPro so it wont be a recommended config but I imagine some facilities will give their old MacPro a try.

Thanks for the feedback guys on your RED needs... we are listening.
Peter

 

[shashbugu]

Good to hear from you Peter. We are waiting patiently. Most of us already have the recommended hardware in anticipation of this release.
The deck-link extreme 3 card, there is very little information about this card on your site. is it similar in performance to a Kona Xena 3 card?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks for the clarification, Peter.

Hopefully we'll see some updated GPU offerings in the near future, hoping for some magic with the next Mac Pro update, probably will occur with the next Intel CPU release.

I do have to say that I am appalled that anyone would recommend the Apple RAID card.... Seriously, it's truly a dreadful product.

Several good offerings from ATTO and Areca. Some of the Areca ones are Mac bootable too -- but running internal RAIDs on a 2009 Mac Pro takes some hardware modding.

 

[Shane Betts]

but running internal RAIDs on a 2009 Mac Pro takes some hardware modding.

I thought that was the reason for all those holes in the front of the Mac Pro - they're for putting screws through aren't they? :thumbsup:

 

[Shane Betts]

I believe my next Mac will be a EFI Hackintosh, with the amount of slots I need.
This will allow me to dual boot into Linux and slowly make the cross over if needed.

I hear ya Rory. I'm looking seriously at Hackintosh too.

 

[Peter Chamberlain]

DeckLink HD Extreme 3D info at
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/downloads/brochures/DeckLink.pdf

 

[MichaelHalsell]

Looks like there will no technical reason for poorly graded footage anymore, other than the human error.