DaVinci for Mac, game changer or game over?

[Alex Hastings]

well actually to be precise baselight at 95K now offer the full system including color surface and quite a few TB of storage (if i am not wrong...i had an email couple of days ago...)

Baselight is awesome one of the best, if not the best grader on the market. The 95k Baselight is limited to HD only, can't do 2k without a step up in the system. Full system though, just add grading monitor and your good to go.

If Baselight can keep pushing forward, it actually has the best future of any post app out there. I seem to remember something about Baselight being an internal compositing app at Framestore a long time ago, then it turned into a grader when the GUI was designed. So before it was a grader it was a command line compositing app.. So they just need to build a GUI for the compositing aspects of baselight and its got a another feature set.

 

[M Most]

Baselight is awesome one of the best, if not the best grader on the market. The 95k Baselight is limited to HD only, can't do 2k without a step up in the system. Full system though, just add grading monitor and your good to go.

I don't think that's the case. That's a description of its video input and output. If you're working with files, and not doing real time video output, I don't think there is any resolution limit, although clearly you're going to hit some performance limitations with things like 4K. Even the system sold as "Baselight HD" was not actually limited to HD resolution. The new version essentially replaces that product, offering a lot more for a lot less money.

 

[jake blackstone]

Baselight is awesome one of the best, if not the best grader on the market. The 95k Baselight is limited to HD only, can't do 2k without a step up in the system. Full system though, just add grading monitor and your good to go.

If Baselight can keep pushing forward, it actually has the best future of any post app out there. I seem to remember something about Baselight being an internal compositing app at Framestore a long time ago, then it turned into a grader when the GUI was designed. So before it was a grader it was a command line compositing app.. So they just need to build a GUI for the compositing aspects of baselight and its got a another feature set.

To my knowledge, none of Baselight versions are limited in working resolution. People have done 4k features on Baselight 1. It's just a matter of usability and interactivity. I'm sure the new GPU enabled $95k system (curious what they call it these days) is a more capable system than Baselight 1 and Baselight HD of old.

 

[jake blackstone]

Baselight is awesome one of the best, if not the best grader on the market. The 95k Baselight is limited to HD only, can't do 2k without a step up in the system. Full system though, just add grading monitor and your good to go.

If Baselight can keep pushing forward, it actually has the best future of any post app out there. I seem to remember something about Baselight being an internal compositing app at Framestore a long time ago, then it turned into a grader when the GUI was designed. So before it was a grader it was a command line compositing app.. So they just need to build a GUI for the compositing aspects of baselight and its got a another feature set.

To my knowledge, yes, it was initially an internal Framestore product, but I believe, it was a color grading system from get go.

 

[Alex Hastings]

To my knowledge, none of Baselight versions are limited in working resolution. People have done 4k features on Baselight 1. It's just a matter of usability and interactivity. I'm sure the new GPU enabled $95k system (curious what they call it these days) is a more capable system than Baselight 1 and Baselight HD of old.

Its not a working resolution, but an export resolution. Its limited to HD export. It can't export sequences above 1920x1080 as file sequences or out of the DVS boards. You need a different license to be able to get anything out of the 95k baselight above HD. Yeah, there is not a limit to whats on the timeline, or whats imported.

 

[Alex Hastings]

To my knowledge, yes, it was initially an internal Framestore product, but I believe, it was a color grading system from get go.

Yeah, Jake, when you saw it, it was a grading system, but before you saw it, when it was at Framestore and it was a command line based compositor. You need to know some people who where at framestore about 15/20 years ago, like Wolfgang Lempp, but its true.

Its not intended to be a ribbing mate, but thats what I was told.

 

[jake blackstone]

Its not a working resolution, but an export resolution. Its limited to HD export. It can't export sequences above 1920x1080 as file sequences or out of the DVS boards. You need a different license to be able to get anything out of the 95k baselight above HD. Yeah, there is not a limit to whats on the timeline, or whats imported.

Mike Most had already explained and so did I, that HD limitation only applies for the video I/O. Yes, DVS card requires a separate 2k license, which isn't included, but FilmLight would be happy to sell it to you at nominal cost even for the $95k system, but there is no limitation on resolution for grading and rendering. And in that respect, this $95k system (we need a name for it) isn't any different from any other systems out there.

 

[jake blackstone]

Yeah, Jake, when you saw it, it was a grading system, but before you saw it, when it was at Framestore and it was a command line based compositor. You need to know some people who where at framestore about 15/20 years ago, like Wolfgang Lempp, but its true.

Its not intended to be a ribbing mate, but thats what I was told.

It's quite possible and I'm not arguing on the facts. But i wonder the validity of an argument for bringing back compositing system, that is in your own words 15/20 years old. If you just need to bring a mask or another image as a layer, size it and incorporate into the timeline, than Baselight can do it now. I wouldn't consider it compositing, may be 15/20 years ago...

 

[shashbugu]

I am trying to figure out how the thread went from Davinci $995 vs Scratch, to scratch vs baselight. Everyone in the world knows that many years of experience is priceless in any industry. that has never stopped the passionate diehard young creative rookie and the equally innovative young inventor from jumping in and reinventing the tools needed to red-volutionalize the said industry. Might I remind you we are on Red camera forum. Red is presently writing the Motion Picture history books of the future. The industry is not just being revamped here in the United States. People in third world countries are picking up these cutting edge easy to use tools and telling their own stories. How many of the Movies in this year's Oscars were shot in America?
At this years NAB, there were touch screen controlled lights and cleverly engineered Led fresnels costing all peanuts, but putting out enormous intensity whilst using very little energy.

Not to go off topic, but experience is bliss> but it does not take a beautiful talented and eager mind much time to create never before seen image types, colors, and visuals if given the affordable tools to do so.

I think every Professional colorist will tell you that Real Time with clients pays the most. They have all trained themselves to recreate what they already know or have previously done in front of a client. But the real creativity takes time no matter how real time the tools are.
I really applaud the CEO of Black Magic his philosophy has always been "there's no reason why good quality can't be affordable"

I was worried the interface was going to look like Resolve 6.... but no!!!! they actually revamped the whole interface and built in a lot of new features.

 

[Luis Otero]

This paradigm shift is something similar to what we heard few years ago when a guy called Jim shared with the world an incredible aspiration. For those called professionals, it was a SCAM. Guess what: now there are many people with great enthusiasm and interest on this art that today, due to such SCAM, are learning by doing, and some of them doing great cinema by the way.

So I think that now that a company has done for the CC/Grading exactly what Red did for cinematography (making the tools accessible) will help people to gain the experience that so much has been proclaimed as the king of the world. I agree that it is paramount, but if the tools are not at reach of the masses, we will never have the opportunity to obtain such experience.

It is incredible how people that participate on this forum, that know what is the reality of RED and how it has evolved due to this great cyber-community, have not been able to see the parallelism between these two exciting, and one day unthinkable, achievements, and have the arrogance to talk down to the aspiring people that now can get for less that $1K such a great tool.

Why don't you ask Jim how profitable RED is for him precisely due to those aspiring individuals that invest with some sacrifices, spend and create accessories only because someone had an idea that rocked the establishment.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[M Most]

People in third world countries are picking up these cutting edge easy to use tools and telling their own stories. How many of the Movies in this year's Oscars were shot in America?

Very few.
Question #2: How many were shot on digital formats?
Same answer.

I get your point, and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but using the Oscars is not a great way of proving it.

 

[shashbugu]

Very few.
Question #2: How many were shot on digital formats?
Same answer.

I get your point, and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but using the Oscars is not a great way of proving it.

Take a look at the list of all the films in the oscars not just the best picture nominees.

 

[M Most]

Take a look at the list of all the films in the oscars not just the best picture nominees.

I just did. And except for documentaries and animation, the only one I see that was not shot on film is "El Secreto de Sus Ojos." I'm not trying to prove anything here, and I'm almost sorry I said it, but it does relate to what you said.

If anything, I think last year's Oscar nominations had a larger number of digitally shot entries than this year's did. Once again, that doesn't really mean anything in the scheme of things. But it probably does mean that those who are already talking about film's death in feature production as if its already happened aren't really paying attention. Or don't want to.

 

[Chris Parker]

film's death is well underway. it will be a good 10 years until it's done (maximum), but it is underway.

 

[Paul Buhl]

If "secret knowledge" protects your livelihood, the Prometheus of technology will inevitably steal your fire and give it to everyone.

I don't think this is a relevant or useful way to describe what's known as the unquantifiable human phenomenon called "TALENT". The same set of tools produce dramatically different results in different hands. Not to mention, "SKILL" is the result of a talented person's years of experience. The idea that technology alone can replace the artistic human contribution is an oxymoron, one is not the same as the other. Presets can work in a pinch for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience or creative talent, but what a depressing picture of this amazing industry that we are all trying to push forward that is.

 

[shashbugu]

I don't think this is a relevant or useful way to describe what's known as the unquantifiable human phenomenon called "TALENT". The same set of tools produce dramatically different results in different hands. Not to mention, "SKILL" is the result of a talented person's years of experience. The idea that technology alone can replace the artistic human contribution is an oxymoron, one is not the same as the other. Presets can work in a pinch for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience or creative talent, but what a depressing picture of this amazing industry that we are all trying to push forward that is.

Very good point. But in the world of film and video post production, the tools are continuously evolving based on the needs of a few very skilled individuals. There are very few institutions in the world teaching students about these tools, mainly because the tools are very expensive. Developing and releasing more affordable, more intuitive and innovative products will ensure a who new generation of users further increasing the talent pool.
Great Talent is recognizable, it should have nothing to do with the price of a product. The more the user base the more the talented individuals get their hands on tools. We do need the preset wanting individuals to pay for the R&D of products. Talent will always stand out. I would rather see talented individuals make more money than spend their earnings on Ultra expensive tools.
There are so many post facilities with very talented individuals, but millions of dollars invested into equipment closing down every time new cheaper technology is used by the competition.

If "secret knowledge" protects your livelihood, the Prometheus of technology will inevitably steal your fire and give it to everyone.

@ Paul, Jeff makes a good point here. You can not equate good talent with guarding secret knowledge. Secret knowledge is having business smarts, I see nothing wrong with that, except that talented individuals will come up with alternative methods to do whatever secretive tool set one has

 

[Paul Buhl]

The "Secret Knowledge" thing is a little too conspiratorial for me. I think it's more accurate to talk about the high-end scene vs the emerging pro-sumer scene. Personally I think the pro-sumer scene is very exciting right now and I'm thrilled be a part of it, but I also understand some of the exclusive strengths of the high-end. Anyone can break into the high-end if they are determined to, it's not a secret, it's just harder to break in, takes longer, and the path is often filled with undesirable assistant work. You have to really ask yourself where you WANT to be. I know PLENTY of talent who are working in high-end post houses, making great money, but don't love what they do and would rather be working on indie features, but can't give up the money that comes with commercial advertising work. I came into this business with a die-hard focus on feature editing and avoided the commercial post house scene intentionally. Now my feature projects are onlining in those same post houses, but it took eight years to get there. For me it's far more important to decide where you want to be and love what you do, and use BOTH the pro-sumer and high-end to achieve it, than it is to worry about which one is holier than the other.

 

[shashbugu]

The "Secret Knowledge" thing is a little too conspiratorial for me. I think it's more accurate to talk about the high-end scene vs the emerging pro-sumer scene. Personally I think the pro-sumer scene is very exciting right now and I'm thrilled be a part of it, but I also understand some of the exclusive strengths of the high-end. Anyone can break into the high-end if they are determined to, it's not a secret, it's just harder to break in, takes longer, and the path is often filled with undesirable assistant work. You have to really ask yourself where you WANT to be. I know PLENTY of talent who are working in high-end post houses, making great money, but don't love what they do and would rather be working on indie features, but can't give up the money that comes with commercial advertising work. I came into this business with a die-hard focus on feature editing and avoided the commercial post house scene intentionally. Now my feature projects are on-lining in those same post houses, but it took eight years to get there. For me it's far more important to decide where you want to be and love what you do, and use BOTH the pro-sumer and high-end to achieve it, than it is to worry about which one is holier than the other.

Exactly, I agree with you. As long as visual effects keep improving with new higher than super HD acquisition formats continue to evolve formats eg 10k 3D stereoscopic, etc the line will always be drawn. But if software and hardware manufacturers keep up competitively at this pace the technological lines will be blurred and pure raw talent will really shine.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

The "Secret Knowledge" thing is a little too conspiratorial for me. I think it's more accurate to talk about the high-end scene vs the emerging pro-sumer scene. Personally I think the pro-sumer scene is very exciting right now and I'm thrilled be a part of it, but I also understand some of the exclusive strengths of the high-end. Anyone can break into the high-end if they are determined to, it's not a secret, it's just harder to break in, takes longer, and the path is often filled with undesirable assistant work. You have to really ask yourself where you WANT to be. I know PLENTY of talent who are working in high-end post houses, making great money, but don't love what they do and would rather be working on indie features, but can't give up the money that comes with commercial advertising work. I came into this business with a die-hard focus on feature editing and avoided the commercial post house scene intentionally. Now my feature projects are onlining in those same post houses, but it took eight years to get there. For me it's far more important to decide where you want to be and love what you do, and use BOTH the pro-sumer and high-end to achieve it, than it is to worry about which one is holier than the other.

Nicely said, Paul.

For years, I was a high-end online editor at the shops in LA. I was working on some of the biggest shows on the major networks, getting good work... and I was pretty miserable. I had a young family, and more often than not, I'd have to call my wife on short notice and say, "won't be home until... much much later." Every once in awhile, that's fine. At least twice a week for more than a year... not so much.

One particularly bad night after a psycho producer on a big show had just kept most of the online staff of a big post house working until 3AM on something that really REALLY did not matter just because her ego needed its power fix, a switch flipped in my head. I realized that I was at the top of my game in the Online Editorial field... and it was never going to get any better than this.

Started looking for a gig with a manufacturer the next day, and have never looked back. I'm happier, my family is happier, and I still get to do creative stuff with cool people.

It really is a question of stepping back and deciding where you want to be. Those are not easy decisions...

Best,

Lucas

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Nicely said, Paul.

For years, I was a high-end online editor at the shops in LA. I was working on some of the biggest shows on the major networks, getting good work... and I was pretty miserable. I had a young family, and more often than not, I'd have to call my wife on short notice and say, "won't be home until... much much later." Every once in awhile, that's fine. At least twice a week for more than a year... not so much.

One particularly bad night after a psycho producer on a big show had just kept most of the online staff of a big post house working until 3AM on something that really REALLY did not matter just because her ego needed its power fix, a switch flipped in my head. I realized that I was at the top of my game in the Online Editorial field... and it was never going to get any better than this.

Started looking for a gig with a manufacturer the next day, and have never looked back. I'm happier, my family is happier, and I still get to do creative stuff with cool people.

It really is a question of stepping back and deciding where you want to be. Those are not easy decisions...

Best,

Lucas

Great post Lucas... Thanks!