DaVinci for Mac, game changer or game over?

[M Most]

And to say the least, Blackmagic, they just keep pushing and pushing, the pace at how they develop new products is scary, they obviously surpassed Kona (although I prefer them) on features alone. ,,,

And yet you prefer AJA. Does that not illustrate my point?

 

[shashbugu]

$999 gets you a piece of software, nothing more. Scratch is a system, as is Baselight.

Ha ha thats really not true, its actually the opposite

 

[shashbugu]

its wierd that all I hear on this thread is a sense of elitism. Who gives a f**k what highend facilities use? 10 years ago 64bit was only in $50,000 SGI machines runing IRIX. What happened to that? The same users of the SGI machines are doing high end creative jobs on $6000 HP workstations.

Davinci Resolve is not a conform tool true, but guess what it can conform and finnish just like the rest of them, its just expensive to conform on it thats all. Its data managment tools are actually more robust than scratch. All it dosent have is a multi track time-line.

 

[M Most]

its wierd that all I hear on this thread is a sense of elitism. Who gives a f**k what highend facilities use?

One could easily say that by making that statement, you're showing a reverse elitism that is just as destructive.

And one answer to your question as to who gives a f**k what high end facilities use is, well, I do, because I've worked in and continue to work in rather high end facilities for much of my career. And whether you think so or not, so do a lot of other people, including the manufacturers - who use those high end facilities for most of their PR and advertising to get you, the non-highend user, to buy their tool under the category of "living the dream" of using what "the pros" do. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the influence of the high end market.

 

[roryhinds]

Resolve is on Mac

The Mac market had no colour grading apart from Color which Apple royally screwed up from Silicon Color, not that they did a great job on it.

So for me its all about how BM take on the responsibility of providing a reliable color grading tool for the Mac platform... something that Assimilate should have done years ago.

Assimilate IMO have shot themselves in the foot with supporting Windows only.

Now all we need is Apple to bring out a Workstation Pro Mac with more slots and nVidia to release SDI drivers for the Mac... so we are back to dreaming of what is needed.
Apple are too buys with iToys and I think the Pro market is just a by product for them so the dilemma is what is the future for all this "high-end" software (Smoke & Resolve) if the hardware it runs on won't deliver.

Hackintosh anyone?

 

[M Most]

Now all we need is Apple to bring out a Workstation Pro Mac with more slots and nVidia to release SDI drivers for the Mac... so we are back to dreaming of what is needed.
Apple are too buys with iToys and I think the Pro market is just a by product for them so the dilemma is what is the future for all this "high-end" software (Smoke & Resolve) if the hardware it runs on won't deliver.

Hackintosh anyone?

Good luck getting real support from any software publisher if you go that route.

The future for "high end" Smoke and Resolve is already here. It's called Linux, and it already runs on the very workstations you're describing. Without resorting to hacks. And with full support.

 

[roryhinds]

Mike, I think you underestimate the Mac OS user base.

There are a lot of people out there that don't want to work on Linux or Windows.
Its that old argument that if everyone used Mac OS then there wouldn't be such an over inflated IT industry.

Yes using Hacks is a last resort but to be frank, support on a Mac system with someone that knows Mac is nothing like support on Linux or Win so a lot of Mac users can get by sorting out there own issues without the need of support. The only thing that would get them is an actual bug in the software.

And I'm not talking facilities here, I'm talking small businesses with independent artists running there own shop who can afford to break the envelope and innovate in their own way.

But my main point was Resolve is on Mac OS which is the biggest thing for me.

 

[Arttie Puig]

Like I said before, I would be defending Scratch too if I paid $75K, which I almost did, now I'm glad I didn't. Besides, everybody is comparing it with the Mac version, but the Linux one seems to be the real deal. Besides, let's look at what movies were done on a DaVinci and which ones on Scratch, and also, the Mac version, is not a watered down version.

 

[M Most]

Like I said before, I would be defending Scratch too if I paid $75K, which I almost did, now I'm glad I didn't. Besides, everybody is comparing it with the Mac version, but the Linux one seems to be the real deal. Besides, let's look at what movies were done on a DaVinci and which ones on Scratch, and also, the Mac version, is not a watered down version.

I'm not defending or criticizing anything. I don't own Scratch, I don't own a Resolve, and I don't own a Baselight. I'm just stating my views as a non-biased but experienced colorist who has worked in what those here call the "high end" of the industry for a long time. I have no personal agenda whatsoever other than to give people here who don't have that experience a little bit of perspective.

 

[M Most]

Mike, I think you underestimate the Mac OS user base.

There are a lot of people out there that don't want to work on Linux or Windows.

I wasn't commenting on the user base. I was commenting on the notion of using an arguably illegal configuration, and definitely an unsupported one, from both the hardware side and the software side.

Yes using Hacks is a last resort but to be frank, support on a Mac system with someone that knows Mac is nothing like support on Linux or Win so a lot of Mac users can get by sorting out there own issues without the need of support. The only thing that would get them is an actual bug in the software.

And I'm not talking facilities here, I'm talking small businesses with independent artists running there own shop who can afford to break the envelope and innovate in their own way.

If you ever have a problem and you call Blackmagic and tell them that you're doing this, my guess is that they will immediately tell you that what you're trying to do is unsupported and they really can't help you. If you want to run a business on that basis, be my guest, I can't stop you. But I don't think the term "professional" would fit that scenario, regardless of whether it's an "independent artist" or an experienced pro.

 

[Paul Buhl]

Software vs Hardware

Software vs Hardware

I think it's important to separate the software and hardware here. Sure, there are amazing developments in software that folks on the high-end pro side need to take seriously, but software is still limited by hardware on the more pro-sumer work-flows, which are absolutely great for HD only projects, but a 4K project can be very difficult in those environments. I recently finished a 4K R3D feature by cutting with H Proxies in FCP, using XML to get into Smoke transcoding to 10 bit log DPX 2K conform, graded the 2K on DaVinci, then back to Smoke for composites and output to HDCam SR. Comparing that experience to grading with Apple Color on a Quadcore, I would say is a stretch. Sure, you can grade the 4K in Color, but it's shot by shot with no real-time play back unless you've got the serious muscle on the hardware side, which would make the "inexpensive" aspect of software not so inexpensive. DPX data rates of 3gbits per second would crush a typical G5 quad or eightcore, even at 2K. Working with the 10 bit 2K DPX on a DaVinci (proprietary) in real time was pretty impressive. So although I love Apple and only cut in FCP and love the software revolution and the innovation it brings to all levels of post, you still can't get around the fact that software is just software, and hardware is the muscle it depends on.
Scratch was introduced as a low priced finishing system starting at $70,000, competing with systems typically priced $150,000-$300,000.
Thinking that a $1000 software product can replace even a $50,000 system is a bit wishful. The bottom line of what's going on here is the offline editing world is pushing rapidly up toward trying to become a finishing world and some of the high-end finishing world is coming down to the desktop software revolution, which is great for everyone because it supplies us with many innovative options. But there is no free ride when it comes to properly grading, conforming and finishing projects outside of the compressed HD environment.

 

[roryhinds]

Yes I agree Mike.
No point arguing over what is professional and what is not.
RED was seen as "unprofessional" when they were starting off pulling bits and piece and making it work.

Shall we get aback on point.... Resolve is on MAC and its the only real "pro" color grading option available on that platform, discounting Color from Apple.

It will be interesting to see how it impacts the market being on the iToy platform.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

its cool to have davinci/smoke and what will come next to the MAC.

I want to see what people like brian allen can get out of this pieces of software.

 

[shashbugu]

M Most & Paul Buhl I'm not sure I clearly understand you. Redcode is an intelligently light, and well compressed raw codec. The trick to its fluid playback is in real time debayering.
the Davinci Linux is priced (you can verify this with BM) for tele-cine style grading. For R3D's the $1000 resolve software on a mac uses the same cuda technology as Adobe does for playback and correction using a BM card to monitor. So I'm not sure why you guys think for a Red Project the mac resolve wont be adequate. On the contrary. there is nothing but more GPU 's in the linux version. Apple does not support multiple GPUs as of today, who knows what the future brings. 16 core macs with SLi hmmmmm..... just as 1080p means nothing, there are many levels of 4k. A 4k film scan is contained in a larger file format compared to a 4k Redcode file. This does not mean the Film scan is better or richer than the R3D, they are just different beasts You can playback 4 layers of 4k R3ds in real time on sony vegas today, try that with a 2k exr file. So the term high end only stands for specific industry price.

The mac is now 64bit and you have the complete Adobe suite, many NLE's, 3D programs etc to work with. Its more creative to have those tools at your disposal on one platform. It amazes me how people get excited about tools on the Linux platform. I know its more scalable but yikes!!! I leave that o the professionals like you M Most. I just need cheap tools that I can create with. there are amazing young frustrated or opportunistic innovative folks that will continue to destroy the high end with more intuitive and amazingly simple tools. the best roto tools used to be in smoke, then imagineer systems came out, now look at the Adobe roto brush light years ahead. In about two months a whole new slew of plugins and tool that mimic or are better than baselight, etc will be released. heck Lightworks is free now

 

[Darren Orange]

I agree with Shashbugu. As far as I've been told it will stack up just fine and act like any other software with just one GPU like Scratch and Speedgrade. Also to others how many people have read the manual at this point? Also at this point I can't see any issues with it VS a Scratch or Speedgrade. As far as I've known this system is considered the top of the line system.

So better question, who was at NAB and played with this system on a Mac and can give feedback on the setup and how it preformed?

Also at 50K, 30K of that is hardware, I don't know anyone other system that gives you a control panel in its purchase price.

 

[shashbugu]

Really? its the same exact software, no difference whatsoever.

 

[Greg M]

Ha ha thats really not true, its actually the opposite

How is that?

 

[Arttie Puig]

And yet you prefer AJA. Does that not illustrate my point?

I don't know...what is your point really? That Scratch is better? Maybe, but how much better? is it $74K better now? I mean, they use the same panels Apple Color does! And Scratch is a software, not a system, and it runs on Windows, you need a system to run Scratch, but they have no proprietary hardware.

As far as the Kona preference, I like Kona, maybe is a emotional preference, but now BM can do everything they do, and even stereoscopic, so if I had to buy one now, I'd go with BM.

For me, I always tried to get my hands on a DaVinci and never could, where I work I use Quantel Pablo, and the only way to learn it was to work in a big facility, like Company 3, that pretty much do everything on a DaVinci, now I can buy one, unbelievable!

 

[shashbugu]

How is that?

Sorry Scratch is not a system just piece of software, Baselight 8 is almost the same parallel architecture as Resolve linux. Resolve mac is a software only.

 

[shashbugu]

I don't know...what is your point really? That Scratch is better? Maybe, but how much better? is it $74K better now? I mean, they use the same panels Apple Color does! And Scratch is a software, not a system, and it runs on Windows, you need a system to run Scratch, but they have no proprietary hardware.

As far as the Kona preference, I like Kona, maybe is a emotional preference, but now BM can do everything they do, and even stereoscopic, so if I had to buy one now, I'd go with BM.

For me, I always tried to get my hands on a DaVinci and never could, where I work I use Quantel Pablo, and the only way to learn it was to work in a big facility, like Company 3, that pretty much do everything on a DaVinci, now I can buy one, unbelievable!

you will be pleased, after you learn the crazy interface (its intimidating to me) its future proof scalable by graphics card