Copper Bones - RED Monstro - Low Light Test

[Phil Holland]

In the spirit of the "Leo @ ISO 2000" shot by David Fincher and Jeff Cronenweth way back in February 2010 on Mysterium-X, here's a little nod to one of my favorite films shot on RED Monstro.

Here's a low light test using IPP2 and the new ISO Calibration. This was shot at ISO 1000, which under previous calibration would be considered ISO 2000 in terms of general brightness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcfbCylXdG4

If you'd like to see not-so-web-compressed version, here's a UHD 4K ProRes 422 HQ.
http://www.phfx.com/temp/phfx_copperBonesMonstroLowLightTest.zip

Also, let me know what you'd like to know about Monstro. I've shot Xylas, measured Dynamic Range Precisely, run tricky lighting tests, and generally have been stress testing it a lot in between shoots.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Not too shabby! Thanks for all you do Phil!

Would've been a bit interesting to have done the same thing with a Helium for comparison

 

[Branlin Shockey]

Awesome Phil!

I'd be interested to know where you like to place skin tones (according to the gioscope) on Monster and Helium?? Does it change in daylight vs dark interior etc?

Agree with Chris, thanks for doing all that you do,

Branlin

 

[Phil Holland]

Not too shabby! Thanks for all you do Phil!

Would've been a bit interesting to have done the same thing with a Helium for comparison

Thanks Chris!

I did this test back in October of 2017:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?162346-Phil-s-First-Monstro-Thoughts

And we actually just screened this footage at Fotokem thanks to Peter Collister, ASC.

The end result of all of this is I've upgraded both of my cameras to Monstro 8K VV (Dragon 8K VV and Helium 8K S35). This was a personal choice as well as a technical one as I'm mostly working with 8K large format

RED in my opinion has done this very "correctly" in relationship to common motion picture film formats and resolution to film format relevance.

Let me give you the general answer regard Monstr, Dragon, and Helium that I see:


For Spherical Lens Acquisition:

VV Filming:
- Monstro & Dragon 8K at up to 60fps max (75fps WS) (8K VV Dragon is a rare beast)
- Helium N/A

S35+ Filming
- Helium 8K Resolution at up to 60fps max (75fps WS)
- Monstro & Dragon 6K Resolution at 80fps max (100fps WS)

S35 Shooting
- Helium 7K Resolution at up to 68fps max (85fps WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 7.5K at 80fps
- Dragon/Monstro 5K Resolution at 96fps max (120fps WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 5.5K at 109fps

S16 Shooting
- Helium 3.5K at up to 138fps max (172 WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 4K at 150fps
- Dragon/Monstro 2.5K at up to 192fps max (237 WS) - format relevant WS (approx image circle though larger) is 3K at 200fps


For Anamorphic Lens Acquisition:

Things are also interesting for those who are interested in anamorphic filmmaking. For Super 35mm motion picture film there are two common formats for the common 2X and 1.3X anamorphic workflows. Super 35mm Full Aperture and Academy 35mm.

For Monstro and Dragon 8K VV at their max resolution and vertical format size you actually have a format that is slightly taller than Super 35mm Full Aperture 4-perf and notably taller than Academy 35mm. Some 2X and 1.3X metamorphic lenses will cover this larger format and it's very interesting to explore. Also, less common large format 1.25X anamorphic glass plays rather well with this particular sensor size. At this resolution you'd have a fax frame rate of 60 fps.

For a better true analogue to full height Super 35mm Full Aperture you would use the maximum height of the sensor at 7K resolution for a max frame rate of 68 fps. For Academy 35mm anamorphic, you would be tapping into the maximum height of the 6K format with a max frame of 80 fps.

And that alludes to the difference between Helium 8K and Monstro/Dragon 8K as the sensor height is indeed smaller than Super 35mm Full Aperture, but with Helium at 8K resolution you do indeed have full coverage of Academy 35mm for common 2X and 1.3 lenses with a max frame rate of 60fps.

Something to note is with 2X Anamorphic Glass on both Monstro and Helium at full 8K resolution you produce a final resolution of 5184x2160 via "squashed method" (or 10368x4320 for UnSqueezed or 80% UnSqueezed 8294x3456) making this suitable for most modern 4K delivery standards.

 

[William Tracy Babcock]

I'd love to know the results of the DR Test and how it handles highlights in general. Specifically how it compares to Helium & ALEV III. The low light examples posted here and elsewhere have been impressive but I've yet to see how it stacks up on DR & color fidelity.


Trying to make a decision on the upgrade currently, and can't justify doing so if it's not exceeding a competitor's 8 year old sensor...

 

[Martin Stevens]

I love reading your posts Phil. Great stuff.

Where did you get the big matches? Also, what filter(s) on lens?

 

[Phil Holland]

Awesome Phil!

I'd be interested to know where you like to place skin tones (according to the gioscope) on Monster and Helium?? Does it change in daylight vs dark interior etc?

Agree with Chris, thanks for doing all that you do,

Branlin

Thanks Branlin. Well there's an "answer" that I would describe is at key, so basically in the IRE range of 61-70 for typical caucasian skin. For me knowing where 18% gray is more important as I base everything off of that with my exposure logic and doesn't vary as much tonally as skin, so IRE 41-48 generally for normal shooting.

However, it is far more nuanced than that in narrative terms. There's reasons to shoot over or under key and/or light/expose accordingly. For instance this is a dark scene and Eric is about 1 stop under, which I would do for a dark mood/feel such as this. I had more room on the lens for sure and I also could push the ISO if need be, but this is how I lit and exposed for it.

If I was shooting talking head interviews for corporate or a standard interior though, get used to 18% gray landing in that 41-48 range.

I'd love to know the results of the DR Test and how it handles highlights in general. Specifically how it compares to Helium & ALEV III. The low light examples posted here and elsewhere have been impressive but I've yet to see how it stacks up on DR & color fidelity.

Trying to make a decision on the upgrade currently, and can't justify doing so if it's not exceeding a competitor's 8 year old sensor...

Xyla it is. I'll upload them tomorrow. Just a side note RED now has 3 sensor technologies that have surpased the AlevIII in variety of ways. Back when this was a Mysterium and Mysterium-X fight the argument between the two systems was much more of a boxing match, but from Dragon on you have something that has more Total Captured Dynamic Range, is cleaner in low light, more color, and higher resolution. That said if you like the general aesthetics tied to the AlevIII, than that's your preference.

Dragon, Monstro, and Helium all meet or exceed motion picture film as well on those levels, but again look aesthetic and feel are a thing.

The biggest questions for people looking at Helium or Monstro at the moment are:
- Do you want a large format VistaVision image plane?
- Do you want 8K resolution within Super 35mm?

Outside of that, Monstro is indeed more sensitive in low light than Helium, I think it's a smidge over a stop. Monstro is about 1 stop better than Dragon. Gemini should have about 1 full stop more sensitivity on Monstro for that matter.

That's a lot of wiggle over "about 1 stop", but what you are are looking at for all 3 of those sensors is 16-17+ stops of Total Captured Dynamic Range.

I'll certainly dig into this more once I prep the graphics.

 

[Rohan B]

how r the highlights compared to dragon?? and the highlight rolloff..........i have seen some videos and footages and i am impressed but i would like to know ur opinion............

 

[antoine carpentier]

Thanks Phill for your amazing work!
I created a thread where I asked for a helium S35 VS monstro S35. Can you tell us if we definitely won’t loose quality (i mean noise floor/texture, not resolution) if we choose to shoot S35 on monstro compared to helium? Or I have to buy both sensors to shoot VV and S35...

 

[Phil Holland]

I love reading your posts Phil. Great stuff.

Where did you get the big matches? Also, what filter(s) on lens?

Oooh. Matches will be a hard one. I bought probably 30 packs of those ages ago. They are about twice the length and occasionally have some sparkle to them on strike. Oddly they are unlabeled. I'll see if I can figure out where they came from.

No filter on the lens, but I added a smidge of haze in the room for atmosphere, the dust also helped a bit. The flickering fire source came from one of my trusty Magic Gadgets Flicker Boxes. Key light was lantern with candle side fill and rim was a gelled CTB daylight source of a light that will be announced soon, but dimmed to like literally no output.

Something to note if you're down there in the 2500-3500K area and adding blue in particular to any camera these days, might be a good idea to use a filter or gel daylight sources to fill up more of the optimal color range. This was partially a stress test at 3500K with a dominant blue rim and background and I would say if shot slightly differently I could net a much cleaner image. This is true for any camera dealing with the lower or higher end of the color temperature range.

how r the highlights compared to dragon?? and the highlight rolloff..........i have seen some videos and footages and i am impressed but i would like to know ur opinion............

Good. Yet different. Dragon and Monstro on a fundamental level are slightly different. Some of the big differences can be seen in the tightness of the noise pattern in shadows on Monstro, which alludes to cleaner and "more" color. And also interestingly enough on the extreme side there's less artifacting down there. Highlights can be retained and rolled off similarly, but it's a slightly different feel. Not a bad thing IMO as you are netting a better image along the way.

Thanks Phill for your amazing work!
I created a thread where I asked for a helium S35 VS monstro S35. Can you tell us if we definitely won’t loose quality (i mean noise floor/texture, not resolution) if we choose to shoot S35 on monstro compared to helium? Or I have to buy both sensors to shoot VV and S35...

I can say safely that Monstro is more sensitive than Helium if we're talking about where the noise floor comes into play and how much Monstro sees down there. That has nothing to do with the resolution, but rather the sensor design itself. It's about a 1 stop, maybe a hair more difference. Hard to truly quantify. You don't "need" to buy both sensors, but if you want 8K in S35 that's where Helium shows a lot of it's strengths. You would be around 6K on Monstro in comparison.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I have two Helia and one Monstro. Sensor-wise it's like having two destroyers and an aircraft carrier.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Nice, but hate Youtube. Why not upload a 4k file to vimeo, looks much better, no?

Phil, If you want I can upload the prores to vimeo for you if you dont have the vimeo pro account or such.

 

[Phil Holland]

Nice, but hate Youtube. Why not upload a 4k file to vimeo, looks much better, no?

Phil, If you want I can upload the prores to vimeo for you if you dont have the vimeo pro account or such.

I did actually, and there's similar encoding nonsense, but I did want to upload the 8K version. I did provide a link to UHD 4K ProRes however, if you want to see "the goods" that shows it IMO.

Here it is:

https://vimeo.com/256657240

Fun thing is I can grade this differently to playback at a better quality on both sites, but that's silly.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

Hey Phil can I have one of your Monstros...? Charity reasons.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Phil, Nice work and thank you again as always for giving back to this community

 

[PatrickFaith]

Really great work Phil, you've changed my mind on 2000 iso. I've been mostly shooting around 620 iso, then moved up to 800 recently with monstro.

With this footage I decided, what they hey, let's redo some tests at 2000 iso.

Realistically I don't have the budget to light on the other side of windows (i.e. I almost always light inside the room, even though I know things would feel more real if I put the lights external to the house and then simulated the outside - but the cost and setup time is just too much for the productions I do). What I noticed at 2000 iso, I could get the "outside" lighting feel at fairly low cost/time with lighting extremely diffuse. Actually at 2000 iso I had some problems with too much light, where I had to drop the ISO a bit because my monitor was blown out. Another thing I noticed that was huge, before when I cranked up the ISO, I had to drastically reduce the redcode, but with Monstro I actually increased the recode a bit. Monstro is just an amazing camera, and these types of tests kind of pull me out of my past shooting ruts.

 

[AndreasOberg]

Fantastic Phil. That is the best looking material I have seen on youtube yet! Downloading the big file. Working late at work so have access to their 4k OLED TVs.

Wondering. What do you think of monstro for wildlife filming? Our biggest "problem" is usually noise when filming wildlife or I would say a lack of sharp slow motion. To me it seems like of course the noise would be much better, but also that the image would be a bit sharper in slow motion because the pixels are bigger.

Also what lenses could you use. Could you use DSLR lenses? We mostly use Canon 600 F4, not sure how big the image circle is but considering how sharp it is I would imagein its larger than most DSLR lenses. Also what about the big lenses like Canon 50-1000? I would guess they do not quite cover.

Out of my price range for the moment, but I'm very happy that bigger sensors are coming!
/Andreas

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, Nice work and thank you again as always for giving back to this community

Thanks Peter. Dynamic Range stuff coming today. Yesterday ran about 6 hours longer than it should have.

Really great work Phil, you've changed my mind on 2000 iso. I've been mostly shooting around 620 iso, then moved up to 800 recently with monstro.

With this footage I decided, what they hey, let's redo some tests at 2000 iso.

Realistically I don't have the budget to light on the other side of windows (i.e. I almost always light inside the room, even though I know things would feel more real if I put the lights external to the house and then simulated the outside - but the cost and setup time is just too much for the productions I do). What I noticed at 2000 iso, I could get the "outside" lighting feel at fairly low cost/time with lighting extremely diffuse. Actually at 2000 iso I had some problems with too much light, where I had to drop the ISO a bit because my monitor was blown out. Another thing I noticed that was huge, before when I cranked up the ISO, I had to drastically reduce the redcode, but with Monstro I actually increased the recode a bit. Monstro is just an amazing camera, and these types of tests kind of pull me out of my past shooting ruts.

ISO is fairly subjective to taste when it comes to just how you utilize it for general filming. I know of two shows being shot at ISO 2000 right now no Helium. Low light is low light, but if you have the freedom and power over your exposure you can sort of work with it how you like. ISO 250, 800, etc.... Just whatever produces the best image for you. The only real thing is clipping and how you feel about it and image noise and how you feel about it. Thus far, even though my journey with Monstro is relatively new I've delivered ISO 250-3200 material that I enjoy.

Fantastic Phil. That is the best looking material I have seen on youtube yet! Downloading the big file. Working late at work so have access to their 4k OLED TVs.

Wondering. What do you think of monstro for wildlife filming? Our biggest "problem" is usually noise when filming wildlife or I would say a lack of sharp slow motion. To me it seems like of course the noise would be much better, but also that the image would be a bit sharper in slow motion because the pixels are bigger.

Also what lenses could you use. Could you use DSLR lenses? We mostly use Canon 600 F4, not sure how big the image circle is but considering how sharp it is I would imagein its larger than most DSLR lenses. Also what about the big lenses like Canon 50-1000? I would guess they do not quite cover.

Out of my price range for the moment, but I'm very happy that bigger sensors are coming!
/Andreas

Interesting you say that about the web compression! There's actually a rather specific IRE range that YouTube and Vimeo encodes rather dislike in terms of compression. It's in the lower shadows, which is why lifted shadow material encodes slightly better for their respective codecs. It's not a huge deal, but you can certainly see the difference on the ProRes or higher bitrate encode. Thank you for the compliment, I do spend a bit of time on my web encodes though. It's a moving target to upload "the best" material and there's of course file size limitations that truly prevent you from going crazy.

I like Monstro for wildlife, you are wider however on all your lenses, so be aware of that if shooting 8K FF using the full VV sensor. That said many who shoot wildlife will explore 5K-6K to get that S35 range. It's pretty common to use longer still lenses for wildlife for sure, pulling focus is of course harder, but the optics are so very good. Honestly some of Canon's best work optically has been in the 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600mm primes. I have a few long lens solutions like RED's 300mm T2.9 and more recently I enjoy shooting with Sigma's 120-300 for outdoors stuff, great freedom of zoom there. You are correct that the 50-1000 does not cover 8K FF, but down at 5K-6K you'll be having a good day. Personally I have 12-600mm solutions for VistaVision at the moment and in those extreme situations a cheater/doubler/tele-extender are a good idea. Expanders actually work well here too. I did something neat with the Tokina 1.6X expander late last year and the Zeiss 70-200mm T2.9.


Doing the typey typey, then lunch, then uploading some Monstro Dynamic Range Tests and Measurements. I'll drop it here in the Weapon sub-forum.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

This is great! Do you have any images of before any match/candlelight and after? It'd be cool to see a comparison of how much gets illuminated just with the little flames!

Also - what is this tune from? It's going to drive me crazy - The Goonies, Stranger Things, Never-ending Story?!

 

[Phil Holland]

This is great! Do you have any images of before any match/candlelight and after? It'd be cool to see a comparison of how much gets illuminated just with the little flames!

Also - what is this tune from? It's going to drive me crazy - The Goonies, Stranger Things, Never-ending Story?!

The song is from the Goonies as are the props. The coin, the Copper Bones, and you can't see it clearly, but even the map. I always like to put a little something in there.

Here's a frame ungraded without any fire source lit:

And here's a shot straight from camera:

And with the philmColor baseStock color grade: