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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Convince me why my EPIC M costs about 5 times as the Scarlet package

Josh Snyder said:
Eyes don't lie. That's why many Hollywood directors choose it too over EPIC/Red One too.
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Josh, just curious as to your motivation? Your saying that Alexa is better, on a forum where everyone is highly invested in time and money in Red products is like walking into a biker's bar and saying "Harleys Suck!"

I'm just trying to understand what you get from doing this?
 
Alexa has better image than EPIC, so Scarlet is not destorying anything outside your daydreams.
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The real dreams that are getting destroyed here are people thinking the camera is going to make you an artist.

It's not the tool that make you an artist.

The images you see looks good because they had great people working on those movie.

I'm sure those guys can make most camera(s) images look like film.

DOES NOT MAKE ALEXA A BETTER CAMERA.
 
First off, Scarlet is amazing and Red has achieved something quite extraordinary here.

I have however feared that Red would seriously hurt Epic sales by going the way they have. I'm in line waiting for our Epic to ship BUT otherwise would I pay 4 x the price for the camera? No, simple as that. If I need the higher frame rates for a specific job, then I hire.

I'm not being negative in any way, however the differentiation between the cameras is so small I would buy Scarlet over Epic every time.

Simply put is Epic 4 x better than Scarlet...NO.

Now, is Jim crazy? No, he's a billionaire for a very good reason. He's a great businessman and he knows that he will sell many many more Scarlets than Epics.

I just have a feeling that Scarlet is about to steal more of Epic's limelight than Red expects.

For all those who have waited patiently for Scarlet, I'm genuinely excited for you as the camera is now beyond what anyone thought it would be.

Scott
 
Elsie N said:
Josh, just curious as to your motivation? Your saying that Alexa is better, on a forum where everyone is highly invested in time and money in Red products is like walking into a biker's bar and saying "Harleys Suck!"

I'm just trying to understand what you get from doing this?
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Elsie - I am guessing the answer is "Attention."
 
the rental price differences for an epic x vs a scarlet are not going to be that much different.. on a professional set.. (not a small indie project) but the type of stuff Im normally on (big budget commercials)
EPIC is still going to be king..

being restricted in frame rates and resolutions are not going to cut it.. sometimes a director might say.. fuck, lets crank this shit to 150 fps..

oh wait.. this is the scarlet? we can't do that?

sure scarlet will be great, but lets face it.. its a 24fps camera and sometimes, you want more, even when you don't plan for more.
 
Steve Marshall said:
Alexa is a great camera.
Epic is a great camera.

Alexa has an edge, albeit slight, in colour representation if you're comparing them both to film. (NOTE: Not the actual image, just the colour.) Epic has the edge in pretty much everything else. Doesn't stop them from both being great cameras.

Stop arguing. Go shoot something.
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exactly.. argue over which technology is the better camera.. or what camera to buy next year when this one is obsolete?
goddamn go shoot some good stuff. 5d, 7d, dvx, red one, epic, scarlet, alexa.. does it seriously matter? (last four i listed for large screen)
 
This thread is slowly descending into madness.

I have worked with RED cameras for over 3 years now, and I love them.

However a large percentage of jobs now are Alexa. Its a camera people like. Its not cheaper, (at least here, its more expensive) but people like using it.

Hell, I like using it.

But Im not going to say one or the other makes nicer looking images out of the box. Thats up to the person behind it, Ive been on awful projects shot on MX and EPIC and Alexa. (as well as great ones)

RED just gives you a better set of tools to give you more of an edge.
 
Detlev Eller said:
Is the world really in such a bad shape??

... it seems like, no matter how good a new product is, no matter how much idealism, heart, sleepless nights, money, goodwill, love ... & x ... has been poured in ...

there will be a crowd, a big crowd, that will complain.

this is demotivating, folks!!!

Why is it, that all of this stuff comes out?
Isn´t there anything of value to share, contribute, create and have us all enjoy ... ?

Where are the 0.1% of people, that are excited and focused on the future ...
please PM me ... i need to know you!

:-)

Detlev
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Well said.
 
To me this is a silly thread.

Here's how the OP sounds to me: "Convince me why my Mercedes S-Class costs 3 times more than the C-Class. The S-Class isn't 3 times faster."
 
Elsie N said:
Josh, just curious as to your motivation? Your saying that Alexa is better, on a forum where everyone is highly invested in time and money in Red products is like walking into a biker's bar and saying "Harleys Suck!"

I'm just trying to understand what you get from doing this?
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I'm not saying Alexa is better. I'm saying it has better image. things seem to be black or white for you like they seem to be for most people here. Not the kind of behavior you would expect from creative community.
 
Josh Snyder said:
I'm not saying Alexa is better. I'm saying it has better image. things seem to be black or white for you like they seem to be for most people here. Not the kind of behavior you would expect from creative community.
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I guess "better" is a relative term.

For me, the better image is the one captured in 5k RAW... that I can go into and crop if need be and still have plenty of resolution. It is also the image that can be re-worked (ala Alchemy in Redcine Pro) whenever new tools are invented. Not only that, but it is the image that could have been shot using HDRx. If it wasn't, then there is plenty of Dynamic Range in the image without it.

But the best part is, the image was made by a camera I can (barely) afford. I cannot afford an Alexa and its entourage of large accessories. For me, these things all add up to "better image." And when you look at all the Hollywood Blockbusters who seem to be o.k. with the image the Epic produces, well, I think they are exercising just the kind of behavior you would expect from a creative community.

I may be wrong but it looks to me like you are the one seeing things in two non-colors when you focus on one tiny thing that you see as an advantage but that any good colorist can overcome, if true.

And I still do not understand your motivation for starting this discussion.
 
Detlev Eller said:
Is the world really in such a bad shape??

... it seems like, no matter how good a new product is, no matter how much idealism, heart, sleepless nights, money, goodwill, love ... & x ... has been poured in ...

there will be a crowd, a big crowd, that will complain.

this is demotivating, folks!!!

Why is it, that all of this stuff comes out?
Isn´t there anything of value to share, contribute, create and have us all enjoy ... ?

Where are the 0.1% of people, that are excited and focused on the future ...
please PM me ... i need to know you!

:-)

Detlev
Click to expand...

Heartily agree! I am focussed on the future, and enjoying the options! The very fact that we can get to use and own these cameras is incredible, irrespective of which one, and we are in a very small percentage of the 7 billion on the planet who can.

And also never before in human history was this possible, to make such beautiful images with so little effort and, relatively speaking, money. It is a good time, and a time to enjoy and create and get things done!
 
Elsie N said:
I guess "better" is a relative term.

For me, the better image is the one captured in 5k RAW... that I can go into and crop if need be and still have plenty of resolution. It is also the image that can be re-worked (ala Alchemy in Redcine Pro) whenever new tools are invented. Not only that, but it is the image that could have been shot using HDRx. If it wasn't, then there is plenty of Dynamic Range in the image without it.

But the best part is, the image was made by a camera I can (barely) afford. I cannot afford an Alexa and its entourage of large accessories. For me, these things all add up to "better image." And when you look at all the Hollywood Blockbusters who seem to be o.k. with the image the Epic produces, well, I think they are exercising just the kind of behavior you would expect from a creative community.

I may be wrong but it looks to me like you are the one seeing things in two non-colors when you focus on one tiny thing that you see as an advantage but that any good colorist can overcome, if true.

And I still do not understand your motivation for starting this discussion.
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Haven't seen any RED movie that have had more filmic image than some Alexa movies. So I guess those good colorists are really under a rock.

Better image means image that looks better. More DR (HDRx can't be used all the time) etc... being "o.k." with the image doesn't mean the image is better. You choose the camera that work best for the job. Sometimes you have to choose camera that is smaller and lighter, sometimes you must have the best image possible and you go with film, sometimes you shoot 3D and film camera is out of the question. You will never get best from everything. You just have to choose the camera that is the best in the most important aspects of the specific movie.

There are more EPICs on the 3D movie sets because its smaller form factor is better for 3D. Now that ARRI desinged Alexa M with James Cameron for the 3D purposes, I'm sure there will be more Alexa's on 3D sets too. Alexa is more used on the blockbusters that are not 3D.

I'm choosing EPIC for the same reasons, because its smaller form factor and higher frame rates. EPIC produces nice image, that's not the debate.

Image quality is the most important part of the camera, but if there are other areas where the camera must perform in certain level (size, fps, whatever), then you must choose the camera that meets those specifications for the cost of better image.
 
This is just my humble take on the whole ordeal:

The rich/wealthy that own either an Epic X/M that don't make money off the camera and just have one for the sake of having a bad ass camera, I'm sure are ticked off that the masses now have some of the same specs as they do in a camera. I could care less about that lot.

Those who are "affluent in economic resources," that make movies with either camera (EpicX/M), don't give a rats ass since such movies are major blockbusters and bringing in millions of $ to Hollywood, and it's money well spent on such a HS camera (HS film cameras such as the SR3 HS has always been much more $$$ than its slower SR3 counterpart).

Rental houses and some dpZ may be slightly annoyed if they hadn't needed such a high speed camera to begin with. Kind of feel sorry for those guys. But on the bright side, you can sell your cam to a venture that actually needs the HS.

The few trolls who are complaining about no 2/3rd sensor are just annoying and should just get an Ikonoskop like I did.

Thanks Jim again, for bringing your S35 beautiful cam to the people. Far much more money to be made with the 99% than the 1%. You are a genius!
 
I think the truth is somewhere in between.
To produce a smaller resolution camera at this point would have been much more expensive for Red than offering a variation of Epic called Scarlet.
The two camera bodies are 90% similar, same weight and same parts. This brings down productions costs, and it explains why we are looking at two similar cameras (with two different prices... very different).
I personally love 4K 24fps cinema and that's all I need for the 80% of my film productions. At the same time I am happy to have an Epic X for the same reasons you guys expressed above.
Epic in the future will be a much more reliable camera, more solid and extremely powerful. Higher FPS means more freedom and narratively speaking it offers thousand of possibilities.
Truth is that Scarlet was supposed to be a cheap DSLR 2K camera and some people invested on Epic because they needed a higher resolution CCD.
Now I am sure these people are regretting their choice and probably they wish they could have been informed about this extreme change on product specs.

On my side, I couldn't be happier.
 
This thread is hilarious - seriously funny, at first.

But I realize that a lot people got into M or X for early adopter money
And didn't get what they expected. The rental business is a mean ass mistress
and most of us delight in "spectacularly" breaking even.

IMHO Scarlet is for indies - $500/day Sx versus $1500 for X = most will rent the Scarlet
Mark my words. If you want to rent your camera (and don't have the relationships to rent the x)

Buy the Scarlet - I predict Indies will rent this more than any camera - time will tell.

If you want the best camera in the world - by all means buy the Epic - it's an incredible value
and the IMAGES ARE INSANE!

The rest of the comments - while valid - failed to address the financial Despair of the OP.

Jim, not everybody bought the Epic with a sound plan to make it back other than
"well, damn this sounds good, I gotta get me one" - then the camera is for rent on this website
No offense meant to anyone- but if you are counting on Redusers to repay your Epic M
Those days are long gone. Unless you are like Dino or Brook with extensive relationships in your market.

One of the best parts about Red is Jim Jannard sincerely cares about your wallet and will be (has been) the first to say
Don't buy anything without a solid plan to pay for it. He cares so much he made another more affordable version!

Arri won't be doing that anytime soon
 
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Scarlet-X: 12fps 5k for $10k
Epic-X: 120fps 5k for $30k

Scarlet-X Dragon upgrade = Epic-X Dragon price + More.

10x the performance for < 3x the price.

Explain to me what the problem is again? If anyone is paying a premium it's Scarlet-X customers.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
One of the best parts about Red is Jim Jannard sincerely cares about your wallet and will be (has been) the first to say
Don't buy anything without a solid plan to pay for it. He cares so much he made another more affordable version!
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You seriously think the reason why Jim made Scarlet is that people with less money can have RED camera too and not that he can have their money too? You were right, this thread is funny.

and btw Jim said it after Scarlet was released so EPIC owners would stop whining about Scarlet specifications being to close to EPIC (read: why did you buy EPIC if you don't need it, it's your own fault).
 
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