Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Convince me why my EPIC M costs about 5 times as the Scarlet package

There is a function in scarlet that will sell more epic rental days than anything else and that is the 5k FF 12fps function... Since anyone laying their hands on a scarlet, even if its just for one day, will understand the difference between 5k FF and 4k. test it on you epic to me flipping it into 5k is like hitting the light switch, it just makes the image so much nicer so any other option is unthinkable. So an epic will to me and most others be first rental choice and the scarlet would always come second... still good but second.
And for renting out cameras you have to consider the amount of cameras out there epic has a winning edge to all at this date and competition will not go down frome here. When the dragon and the bigger sensors comes then yes we will all want that instead.
look at film, we all started with 8mm as kids, some went on and did 16mm music videos, then with a little bit of talant you got to shoot 35mm... but even if it maybe seams a bit far fetched you would probably want to shot 70mm or why stop there... this digital revolution is not held back by acuall costs as the old process of washing away silver so things will go faster, alot faster. think the most 1year turnaround per sensor at the most. thats atleast how i count.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
Sure the Epic can record 120fps on 5k, but does that really justify it? Maybe I'm being ignorant but I really think that the Epic m is way too expensive compared to the Epic and the higher specs dont make up for the price difference. Are we getting free upgrades on our cameras when the dragon sensor is released?
I'm not trying to whine, I'm just wondering what other Epic M/X owners think?
I already ordered my Scarlet and I'm thinking about selling my Epic
Click to expand...

Scarlet is like BMW 5Series, EPIC is M5!, Its got everything that a 5 Series got, but its got more power, performance and handling! I think this answers your question.

As for the 120fps 5K, dude it matters. They are so many things like HDRx, FPS, Compression rates etc. settings that we would require during production that SCARLET-X won't do especially for big production. If you think you don't need these options, then sell the EPIC, I am sure someone who requires specs will be willing to buy.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
not a valid comparison.
Click to expand...

Yes it is. One is a higher class of product of the same brand. Not everyone needs the flagship model. The existence of the C class doesn't devalue the S class.

And you might want to actually argue your point, instead of just making a blanket statement.

Also, you're comparing the Scarlet X to the Epic M when you should really be comparing it to the Epic-X. The M was a special machined package. So it's actually more like a C-Class vs a Brabus Merc.
 
like I said this analogy before. I still think it works. Epic is race spec, Scarlet is road legal spec. If you go racing, your race spec car wins hands down. However, its all up to the driver, in the end. The road legal version is still incredibly fast and can outpace race spec drivers, if driven with true skill .. ;)
 
Sergio Perez said:
like I said this analogy before. I still think it works. Epic is race spec, Scarlet is road legal spec. If you go racing, your race spec car wins hands down. However, its all up to the driver, in the end. The road legal version is still incredibly fast and can outpace race spec drivers, if driven with true skill .. ;)
Click to expand...

+1 on this
 
Okay, bottom line is that it probably wasn't the wisest thing to do if you weren't absolutely sure you could make back your investment with an M rather than waiting for an X. Thank goodness you could return it in time! Data rates and high speed do play a big role in how these cameras will differ in the marketplace and we'll see that definitely, I'm sure. I'm with you though, 4K at 24fps is probably the most I would need and ever use for 99% of my work, so the Scarlet is a perfect fit, even though I'm giving up on some higher end features. RED wisely answered this need and it'll pay off big for everyone, which is something the competition doesn't seem to get. Good luck with your Scarlet, still working my way towards one myself.
 
Josh Snyder said:
Alexa has better image than EPIC, so Scarlet is not destorying anything outside your daydreams.
Click to expand...

I shot on Alexa all day today and will be shooting it all weekend. This is my 5th Alexa job... Please, can you tell me where the "better image than EPIC" button is? I can't seem to find it. The director wanted to use the Alexa instead of my EPIC because the producer (ad agency) said they wanted to shoot on Alexa. That's all I know.

Anyway, thanks for clearing this up. I'll feel so much better when I show up tomorrow, knowing that I'm getting a better image. I'll just leave that EPIC in the case where it belongs.
 
Thor Melsted said:
Yes it is. One is a higher class of product of the same brand. Not everyone needs the flagship model. The existence of the C class doesn't devalue the S class.

And you might want to actually argue your point, instead of just making a blanket statement.

Also, you're comparing the Scarlet X to the Epic M when you should really be comparing it to the Epic-X. The M was a special machined package. So it's actually more like a C-Class vs a Brabus Merc.
Click to expand...
Speed isnt the only aspect when it comes to comparing cars. I dont think I need to argue my point, saying an S class costs 5 times more than a C class but isnt 5 times faster doesnt make sense. What about luxury? options? stability? size? Cameras are different. You can basically compare RED cameras on resolution and fps/price. Sure a lot of other factors like size, weight, options, are comparable but the defining feautures are resolution and fps. Everyone freaked out when it was announced that scarlet is 4k but no one will freak out if the S class is 5000cc. That's not why people buy the S class.
I'm sorry my english isnt perfect that's why I dont like arguing a lot. I find it hard picking the right words to voice my opinion at 6 am.
 
Zack Birlew said:
Okay, bottom line is that it probably wasn't the wisest thing to do if you weren't absolutely sure you could make back your investment with an M rather than waiting for an X. Thank goodness you could return it in time! Data rates and high speed do play a big role in how these cameras will differ in the marketplace and we'll see that definitely, I'm sure. I'm with you though, 4K at 24fps is probably the most I would need and ever use for 99% of my work, so the Scarlet is a perfect fit, even though I'm giving up on some higher end features. RED wisely answered this need and it'll pay off big for everyone, which is something the competition doesn't seem to get. Good luck with your Scarlet, still working my way towards one myself.
Click to expand...
I didnt return my Epic though, I love it way too much
 
Josh Snyder said:
Eyes don't lie. That's why many Hollywood directors choose it too over EPIC/Red One too.
Click to expand...

And yet EPIC popularity is growing faster than Alexa popularity ever did... I know many who are converting from Alexa to EPIC.

Serious questions... Have you ever shot with either the Alexa or an EPIC? Have you ever shot a RED One? Have you ever done any post work on anything shot by these cameras?

Judging a camera by the final presentation in a movie theatre or other final delivery situation is madness. There are so many variables and decisions made, the only thing you can be sure of is that the image was processed and manipulated to someone's liking.

The Alexa is a great camera, I'm not bashing it. Like I said, I'm shooting a commercial with it this weekend. And I will gladly do it again. But to say it has a "better image" than EPIC is just wrong. That's not fanboy talk. There are plenty of discussions around here comparing the two, so I won't. If you're serious about buying a camera of the calibre of EPIC or Alexa or whatever, I strongly urge you to rent both and do your own comparative testing within the realm of your own ideal shooting requirements. And there's a lot more to EPIC than the 2K 300fps. If 200fps or more was a key factor for buying a camera to me, I would take a serious look at the PhantomHD or Phantom Flex. Or buy a Scarlet and then rent a Phantom on those occasions I need the speed.
 
Josh Snyder said:
You seriously think the reason why Jim made Scarlet is that people with less money can have RED camera too and not that he can have their money too? You were right, this thread is funny.

and btw Jim said it after Scarlet was released so EPIC owners would stop whining about Scarlet specifications being to close to EPIC (read: why did you buy EPIC if you don't need it, it's your own fault).
Click to expand...

Yes I do, it is clear to me and about 100,000 other people that Jim Jannard is in this for EVERYTHING BUT YOUR MONEY... if that's what you think dude, then you dont know anything about RED and should go shoot Alexa.

Which BTW is super easy to emulate in Redocde2 Redcolor2 by using an 1/8 to 1 Digicon in front of the lens. Looks exactly like Alexa... Ill post pics when the rights are cleared. oh, and the same but without the aliasing of the Alexa
 
Maxi Claudio said:
Red is smart. Scarlet WILL hurt Epic sales. But it will also REALLY hurt Canon sales, and Sony sales. It will put a large slice of DSLR shooters in the Red arena. Canon created the DSLR large chip video Market 3 years ago. Its grown a lot. Most could not justify an Epic, ever. now they can justify a Scarlet and use all their Canon lenses. For Early Epic M adopters, with limited competition, you made a lot of rental money. Any late adopters of Epic M or will find MUCH competition for rentals. Those who had their lenses already paid for will do well renting their packages. I would not want to be someone Buying an Epic with the idea of renting it out. It may take a LONG time to recoup.

I do think a Scarlet, with say 3 Canon lenses, is going to be a great rental package. Cheap and highly capable. Total cost under $20k.
Click to expand...

RED I love you guys but putting out THIS Scarlet will kill my rental business. A lot of us are small time renters who own one camera. It will be RED ONE to EPIC X for me as soon as it gets here. The people who rent from me will be just fine renting the Scarlet instead ofr a lot less money. Music videos and the like... To top things off the new chip is just around the corner. Now before everyone jumps all over me... take a deep breath. There is a lot of truth in what I am saying. This is not a selfish way of lookig at things either.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
I didnt return my Epic though, I love it way too much
Click to expand...

Sorry, Mohamed, I got confused there reading the thread, I was actually talking to Peter Cote a few posts down on the first page.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
And yet EPIC popularity is growing faster than Alexa popularity ever did... I know many who are converting from Alexa to EPIC.

Serious questions... Have you ever shot with either the Alexa or an EPIC? Have you ever shot a RED One? Have you ever done any post work on anything shot by these cameras?
Click to expand...

This is really one of the main point:A lot of ALEXA fans never shot one frame with EPIC or haven't had this beauty in hand. What I think: ALEXA is for analog old fashioned boys who are worried to touch an ALIEN like RED or EPIC. For them ALEXA is human, it looks somehow like a CAMERA! That's the hystery of the traditionals. I have to agree: RED was never good in treating worried people, if they or how they should like RED. They never had the time to do that. Now, slightly things start to change. RED is young and somehow chaotic, which makes this whole story such genious. I don't understand all this whining people, who waited for Scarlet 3K and now haven't the money to buy a much better one. Somehow I like that. Go out, shoot with low prized crapcameras and show the market, that you are talented and you will WIN money. With this money, sooner or later, you may buy a RED product. Because RED is for PROFESSIONALS (or for people who have rich parents ;-).

With the new SCARLET, RED did the best, they could do for both parts, for them and for us: The good old beloved RED1 will retire, the new babies share the main RED brain- and machine-power: sensor, software, accessories, workflow. That's smart, very smart. RED can concentrate there power and win good money, we will win good money, because every thing is interchangeable and you don't have to read ton's of books to understand, how this beast work's. SONY or CANON: they have zillions of products and are lost somewhere in cyberspace. What CANON showed with C300 is just a shame for a company like this. As CEO I wouldn't have shown my head in Hollywood.
 
To me, the Alexa vs. Epic comparisons are futile. Really truly pointless because if I put you in a room with five really high end DPs you will hear some very different perspectives, and you'd probably leave thinking they are all right because of their resume and what you know they are capable of doing no matter what the camera is. You'd also be surprised to hear one of them say that they would actually prefer one of the Panasonic cameras over others (film excluded). The point is, when you spend some time with these DPs you understand this is not black and white. Everyones eyes are different, we have different sensibilities. In a way, it's something that should be embraced, not battled over. That's what gives us art. Do we want everyone using the same camera, the same lighting, the same filters, the same color correction, etc?

To the original poster. If it doesn't make financial sense to keep the Epic, then that is something to carefully look at. If you can recoup your money by selling it and put it towards a Scarlet and still make the projects you want to, then that makes financial sense. A lot of this can be figured out in simple spreadsheets. What is the investment, how much ROI needed in a month, does it make sense to invest in something else, how long before potentially paid off and profit turned. I posted the thread about Scarlet Buyers Guide to hopefully raise some questions/checklist items for people to ask before making a purchase like a Scarlet. It is something that has to be carefully analyzed because emotion and passion gets the best of us. I tend to be impulsive. It has got me in trouble in the past. Planning can be a remedy for that. Looking at worse case scenarios (what happens if RED releases a Scarlet that has 50%, 60%, 70% of the features of my Epic. Will this hurt my potential income? Client base, market saturation, things like that factor in when you need a camera and other gear to make you money. If you are making your own films, that is something entirely different and can be looked at in other ways.

Just as an aside, it's always a bit disappointing to see people disrespecting each other when it comes to what kind of projects they work on, how much experience they have, etc. I suggest being as tactful as you can when it comes to this type of thing. Otherwise it often heads in a really bad direction.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top