Considering selling my Epic Dragon for fs7 with oddessy raw. Thoughts?

[jonathan murphy]

Basically looking for a better all around camera for both cinema and run and gun. Anyone have thoughts on the fs7 with raw? How does it compare to the epic dragon? Big question for me also is how does it grade? I do a LOT of color work in davinci. I have shot with RED for so long I'm not sure what the competition looks like.

What i I like about the fs7 is the pick up and shoot ability with the option of Raw if you want it. It's ergonomics look fantastic (with some adjusting), price is good and it seems like a decent low light camera.

Would love to hear some constructive thoughts from people who have shot with both.

 

[Linda Barzini]

I am happy with the images from my Epic Dragon, but it really isn't a run-n-gun camera.

 

[jonathan murphy]

Yeah its a terrible run and gun camera. Thats what is so fascinating about the FS7. I am a one man band and do all sorts of jobs from real cinematic shoots and then also some run and gun stuff. The FS7 "seems" to be able to do it all. Especially with RAW from the Odyssey. The one thing stopping me is that great image i get from the dragon....

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

You might find the imaging from the FS7 to be a bit "thin"...especially if you are utilizing the raw settings in Resolve and grading from a log image from your Epic. I used to own an FS700 and shot mostly internally, but did some external capture on certain projects. I personally didn't completely jive with Sony's sLog color space. There were many decisions behind me going from an FS700 to a GH4 + External Recorder....however I feel like VLog-L is bit more to my liking. Shot a piece on an Epic Dragon earlier this year and what I felt like I was able to deliver and produce completely made me re-evaluate my camera choices. Now I'm continuing to shoot with my GH4 but am getting to the upper limits of what I can do to push the picture to where i want it to be while waiting on an S-W. I do some run-n-gun style work, but I've always been able to produce better content with a traditional cine approach to the rig so my setups are always a weird hybrid.

To me the difference of camera (or sensor+color science) is more about my preference, similar to those who shoot one film stock as their go-to over another. In certain scenarios, I really wish I had the form-factor and ability of the FS7...but overall I'd rather fight the form a bit and play to my taste in images. That being said, if you're into sLog or feel like it's gunna be your jam, go for it! I've shot many things on the FS7 and found it to be a great camera in many ways. I'm just willing to flex on certain things to gain others...which is why I find myself wanting to jump to an available camera, but hanging on for my S-W.

 

[Jack Hents]

Depends what you're after. As a documentary cam, FS7 wins hands down. Much more ergonomic/flexible for run and gun. As a cinema camera, though, I'd be somewhat hesitant. Sony's color science has never been to my liking and it seems very difficult to achieve a 'filmic' look with even their high-end lineup.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Why not own both?

Yeah its a terrible run and gun camera. Thats what is so fascinating about the FS7. I am a one man band and do all sorts of jobs from real cinematic shoots and then also some run and gun stuff. The FS7 "seems" to be able to do it all. Especially with RAW from the Odyssey. The one thing stopping me is that great image i get from the dragon....

 

[Greg M]

Why not own both?

this.

I have both, completely different cameras.

But if you are seriously considering just one, understand its a big downgrade in quality to move to the FS7.

 

[Tom Bostick]

If you shoot s-log on sony be prepared for inaccurate colors, particularly (maybe ironically) the color red.

 

[David Battistella]

Jonathan,

i'm curious as to what part of the dragon is bad for run and gun? Ergonomics? Audio? Shouldering ability? I think the image quality far outweighs the inconveniences (which I feel I pretty much worked out by now)

at at the price of an fs7 you might consider staying in the red ecosystem with either a Scarlett w or a raven which is always kitted out only for use as a run and gun camera. This way you could also have a backup to your red and a second red camera to offer on two camera shoots. It doesn't hurt to have a back up.

Other than that, I sorta get the arguments in this thread, but the Raven and w tick the prores boxes for fast(er) turnaround etc.

david

 

[Ugo Del]

I work with Red cameras since 2011, sold my Scarlet-D in february, thinking I would get the Scarlet-W soon after but, unfortunately, had to cancel my order because of the delay and bought a Varicam LT. That must be some karma thing because finally it's the best camera I've ever owned and I would never have looked at it much if there was not the delay thing. If you're looking for good ergonomy, great DR, beautiful colors, clean 5000 iso, you should have a look and test it. Raw output will come for free in the next firmware upgrade. The ease in post is insane, everybody always talks about the freedom of raw but I had to sell my Scarlet and buy a camera with compressed codecs to finally understand what "freedom in post" is about, with beautiful immediate results. Closest thing to Alexa you can find out there. Another thing, the guys at Panasonic are great, they helped me a lot.

 

[Oron Cohen]

If you want an FS7 for run and gun, just get one along side the Epic not instead, those cameras are frankly uncomperable to me, the image from EPIC Dragon is so much more cinematic and it works so much better for fiction and music videos etc or if budget is a concern, maybe consider the FS5?

Also, I really, really like the images coming from the Varicam LT, so if you want a 1 to 1 replacement to the Epic I'd say this is a better way to go as Ugo suggested. You would lose some Slow-mo capabilities in super35 size sensor, but no one is prefect

 

[jonathan murphy]

Jonathan,

i'm curious as to what part of the dragon is bad for run and gun? Ergonomics? Audio? Shouldering ability? I think the image quality far outweighs the inconveniences (which I feel I pretty much worked out by now)

at at the price of an fs7 you might consider staying in the red ecosystem with either a Scarlett w or a raven which is always kitted out only for use as a run and gun camera. This way you could also have a backup to your red and a second red camera to offer on two camera shoots. It doesn't hurt to have a back up.

Other than that, I sorta get the arguments in this thread, but the Raven and w tick the prores boxes for fast(er) turnaround etc.

david

The 3 killers that make RED a terrible run n' gun are:

1. Takes forever to power up
2. Battery hog.
3. the T/E calibration is so picky. It always gets off and I have to go in and change my calibration. If I change something on the fly like going to slow mo it gets off. This is probably the biggest deal to me and the biggest annoyance.
4. Smaller thing but side handle can't be put in front of you like some of the other cameras so you basically can't put it on your shoulder unless you do some yoga voodoo to push the right buttons.

I love love love the RED. These are just the things that make it almost useable for run and gun for me.

 

[jonathan murphy]

I work with Red cameras since 2011, sold my Scarlet-D in february, thinking I would get the Scarlet-W soon after but, unfortunately, had to cancel my order because of the delay and bought a Varicam LT. That must be some karma thing because finally it's the best camera I've ever owned and I would never have looked at it much if there was not the delay thing. If you're looking for good ergonomy, great DR, beautiful colors, clean 5000 iso, you should have a look and test it. Raw output will come for free in the next firmware upgrade. The ease in post is insane, everybody always talks about the freedom of raw but I had to sell my Scarlet and buy a camera with compressed codecs to finally understand what "freedom in post" is about, with beautiful immediate results. Closest thing to Alexa you can find out there. Another thing, the guys at Panasonic are great, they helped me a lot.

I will be checking this out

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Varicam image is VERY, VERY GOOD...better than Sony's for sure...but still a little videoish...maybe it's the motion rendition...I don't know...but it's not as filmic as RED/ALEXA/BMD....imho

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

When it comes to pure image quality, there is no comparison between the two cameras. Even with all the convenience and comfort you get with the FS7, it is a huge downgrade compared to shooting with Dragon.

 

[jonathan murphy]

When it comes to pure image quality, there is no comparison between the two cameras. Even with all the convenience and comfort you get with the FS7, it is a huge downgrade compared to shooting with Dragon.

Yeah I actually just borrowed a friend's FS7. Just did some tests and although the FS7 looks nice, it can't compare to the dragon.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

Jonathan, I do a lot of run and gun myself and I know exactly where you're coming from. My advice to you would be to forget the FS7 and upgrade to Weapon if possible. Better power management, better cooling, one black shade for all frame rates, weighs less, delivers a MUCH cleaner image, and it has all the ports in the right place . I also think the side handle is an absolute must for any type of run and gun work, map your favorite functions to it and shoot all day.

 

[jonathan murphy]

Jonathan, I do a lot of run and gun myself and I know exactly where you're coming from. My advice to you would be to forget the FS7 and upgrade to Weapon if possible. Better power management, better cooling, one black shade for all frame rates, weighs less, delivers a MUCH cleaner image, and it has all the ports in the right place . I also think the side handle is an absolute must for any type of run and gun work, map your favorite functions to it and shoot all day.

I totally would if I could. I just can't justify spending more on top of what I have already spent. I was hoping the upgrade price would be similar to how it was in the past but they really upped it this time..

 

[jonathan murphy]

Here is a question as I have been a bit out of the loop on the new RED stuff. Does the Scarlet W produce better DR or less noise than the epic dragon? I know i would lose resolution and HFR but just curious.

Thanks

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

IDK, the image starts with the Sensor and they all have the same bayer sensor Limitations... FS7 is a 4k Sensor, not 5 not 6, so and limited to what's actual resoluted...