Considering selling my Epic Dragon for fs7 with oddessy raw. Thoughts?

[Ugo Del]

Varicam image is VERY, VERY GOOD...better than Sony's for sure...but still a little videoish...maybe it's the motion rendition...I don't know...but it's not as filmic as RED/ALEXA/BMD....imho

Is it based on some real life testing? I owned both, it's absolutely not what I experienced.

 

[Daniel Reed]

I imagine the next version of Raven w/ a Helium sensor may be an amazing run and gun cam.
Especially if they can get power demands down and further shave off a little more weight.

I wouldn't be too surprised if they announce something like it by NAB 17

 

[patrickortman]

My Two Cents, because like you, I do a lot of very small crew jobs mixed with some very very big jobs (corporates vs. commercials).

The FS ecosystem with SONY is fucking fantastic. The color issues are an easy fix if you know your way around DaVinci and how to use a LUT. I particularly love Art Adams' Alexa LUT. The ergonomics of the FS7 and FS5 are way, way better than RED for the kind of work you do, too (form factor, dedicated buttons, BUILT IN ND, batteries that last all day). And if you go Raw out, even at 4K not 6K, you'll get a fantastic image for these kinds of projects (your smaller ones). And for most of your projects, if you went FS7, the built-in 4K is really perfectly fine.

The Panasonic Varicam looks kickass, too. I know guys who have sold their Dragons and gone that route, and they're thrilled. Seriously.

Yet...

For commercials and films I still want RED or Alexa. Maybe it's my prejudices, having shot almost all-RED for so long. I think a lot of us are inherently prejudiced towards RED, here. We love our REDs. As we should. They're just not the right camera for every job, despite what some people here like to think.

I think what you're going through is a good thing. It's good to re-evaluate your tool choices now and then. I hope you find your perfect camera.

P

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I agree whole heartedly with Patrick above. I have had instances where the project should have been on say an FS7 but I pushed and they went Dragon and I was thrown by the comment that the Red did not look real enough. I was like - huh? But that is what was said. Now the FS7 can dress up a bit and look pretty good, but Red and Alexa for narrative or spots are definitely top picks. Depends on the jobs right. I think for someone who is trying to get some traction, you need good stuff to show. If you can have a personal kit, be it FS7 or GH4, you can shoot some great stuff with the money you saved from not buying tens of thousands more expensive gear. And if you nail it - then eventually you can graduate. But first invest in the 'what' you are about, not just the tool.

 

[Gene Sung]

I own both the FS7 and the Scarlet-W.

The FS7 wins hands down for doc jobs - Speed Booster, 2x crop punch in are major features for docs, plus really good ergonomics. With BertLUT ArriLook you're getting a fantastic, very cinematic look out of the FS7 with zero effort. You can work way faster with the FS7 - Small files, Internal NDs and batteries the last forever (biggest weakness of Red).

The Scarlet-W is great as well, but for different reason. For scripted stuff and music videos, producers love the Red. The Red codec is the best by far, but the FS7 internal codec is pretty good for most stuff. Red has a better stock color science, but the 3rd party BertLUT on the FS7 is very cinematic.

RAW on the FS7 SUCKS BIG TIME. I would just avoid it. I sold the XDCA unit soon after getting the FS7 because it was a pile and the RAW has never worked well

Different cameras for different uses.

 

[Hal Long]

I agree, the Dragon's not the most adept run-n-gun camera. If you're considering a switch, the FS7 will be more user friendly, but color and the various SLOG have their limitations. An earlier poster talked about this being easily fixable in post, but that's not the point in a one-man-band scenario. You want it in the can and through post quickly and easily. If you can swing it, the Varicam LT will be a better bet as it the colors are incredibly accurate. Color separation is fantastic. The LT is more expensive than the FS7 though. For your type of operation I would think an LT with either the new or older Cabrio would be ideal, or even with EF zooms. I've used the Varicams a bunch and can't say enough good things but haven't had the chance to try the LT with raw to Odyssey yet.

I have several GH4s and use them alongside Dragons and Varicams as C & D cameras. I also do the occasional job where the GH4 is A/B cam. The natural setting gives a cleaner / quieter image than VLOG and it grades well. It's still a DSLR set-up and is pretty clunky for main-camera use, especially with the YAGH adapter. I wouldn't recommend this as a main camera to switch to from your Epic unless you've realized you get do your jobs with a less higher-end rig.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Perhaps I loose i little image quality but I will keep dreming of a red camera with built in nd. Also I hope we se an superb autofocus like canons.

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

I agree, the Dragon's not the most adept run-n-gun camera. If you're considering a switch, the FS7 will be more user friendly, but color and the various SLOG have their limitations. An earlier poster talked about this being easily fixable in post, but that's not the point in a one-man-band scenario. You want it in the can and through post quickly and easily. If you can swing it, the Varicam LT will be a better bet as it the colors are incredibly accurate. Color separation is fantastic. The LT is more expensive than the FS7 though. For your type of operation I would think an LT with either the new or older Cabrio would be ideal, or even with EF zooms. I've used the Varicams a bunch and can't say enough good things but haven't had the chance to try the LT with raw to Odyssey yet.

I have several GH4s and use them alongside Dragons and Varicams as C & D cameras. I also do the occasional job where the GH4 is A/B cam. The natural setting gives a cleaner / quieter image than VLOG and it grades well. It's still a DSLR set-up and is pretty clunky for main-camera use, especially with the YAGH adapter. I wouldn't recommend this as a main camera to switch to from your Epic unless you've realized you get do your jobs with a less higher-end rig.

I shoot GH4 + External Recorder as my A/B cam and it can be clunky, but with basic support it's really solid. I am a huge fan of the VLOG when recording 10-bit externally as it does grade quite nicely. You'll be hurt with its dynamic range for sure, but it's a solid deal. That being said, it can be more cumbersome than an FS system because it still relies on multiple components working in tandem to create the image. I actually believe that when I get my S-W, it'll be a LESS cumbersome rig...in fact I know it as I've shot Epic Dragon recently on a few things we had budget to rent and boy it was just easier.

 

[Enrique Blein]

Why doesn't Red at this point deliver an ENG option? I am in the Red boat since 3K for 3K when it was supposed to have an integrated zoom lens, and when I have to go run and gun, I always leave my Epic behind

 

[Joe Taylor]

I've found that I can "run n gun" with my Epic, if I keep it build for such shooting, of out the case, door an on the sicks, all while powering up, within 20 seconds. It was true run nd gun last week while chasing monsoon storms in Arizona. My fasted camera back in the day was a Canon Xl-2. Probably and 15 sec camera. I'll happily stick with my Epic until it's on it's on its last legs or just before 4k becomes obsolete. Until then I'm just hunky with the Red Epic. Zero problems in 4 years.

 

[Tuomas Hakala]

Talking about Varicam LT... it costs 12000 USD here in China. It has been discounted like this since May and I think it is because it is not selling well at all. It would be good camera (much better than FS7 I believe) if you can shoot it yourself but might be hard to rent out. And if you are upset when camera that you bought looses value in a sudden heartbeat then LT might not be good investment cause based on the price here, I would expect they'd have to cut prices soon else where too (if they haven't yet)

 

[Chris Kennedy]

My biggest thing about shooting RAW on the Odyssey is it isn't compressed-so the file sizes are just insane! On my FS700 shooting RAW 4k 24p is 12 minutes on a 256gb card (so it would be the same as a fs7). So would it really be ideal to run and gun lugging around an Odyssey and literally a ton of SSDs?
I agree with everyone else a Varicam LT is great for run and gun if you wish to move away from RED. Also the C300 mkii isn't that bad either-just overpriced for lack of framerates.

 

[Joachim Hoge]

I have a Dragon, one FS7 and now a Raven as well. The fs7 is a great run and gun camera. NDs, 2 SWIT batteries last me all day and it's very light and have great ergonomics IMHO.
I generally use my fs7 for tv work with quick turnarounds, and the Reds for commercials, drama and action sport.
I think you will be very happy with the fs7 as long as you are prepared for the downgrade in image quality (the fs7 slowmo looks pretty bad and I hardly use it). Most of the flaws of the camera has been worked out with (rather slow increments) firmware upgrades by now.
i shot one commercial with the fs7, as the production company wanted to try to use their own fs7 rather than renting my Red, it only happend that one time to put it that way.
PS I manage to rent out my fs7 more often than my RED cameras, so it paid for itself rather quickly. Only you know your market, but remember to think about what camera makes the most sense to you financially as well.

 

[Ugo Del]

Talking about Varicam LT... it costs 12000 USD here in China. It has been discounted like this since May and I think it is because it is not selling well at all. It would be good camera (much better than FS7 I believe) if you can shoot it yourself but might be hard to rent out. And if you are upset when camera that you bought looses value in a sudden heartbeat then LT might not be good investment cause based on the price here, I would expect they'd have to cut prices soon else where too (if they haven't yet)

The Varicam LT was available in march/april. I don't see a brand like Panasonic discounting their camera just after one month. And I don't see Panasonic discounting it only in China and not in the rest of the world. The price didn't change anywhere else. Panasonic is patient I'm sure. It's a really fresh camera. It's not only better than the FS7 but also way better than my Scarlet-D. Or I would not have cancelled the scarlet-w upgrader special price offer and my first-hour order. Just a question of time before people notice how good it is. Anyone who dreamed about getting an Alexa for its IQ, but bought a more affordable Red instead, should try it.

 

[Tuomas Hakala]

The Varicam LT was available in march/april. I don't see a brand like Panasonic discounting their camera just after one month. And I don't see Panasonic discounting it only in China and not in the rest of the world. The price didn't change anywhere else. Panasonic is patient I'm sure. It's a really fresh camera.

I'm not making predictions on China price. I am stating the fact that the price is 84000RMB (which now is 12600 USD) here. I heard of this already in May from someone I knew (and trust me, I didn't believe it either) so the very next day I went to the other store (big official dealer here in Beijing) where I've bought all the gear for past 7 years (which is also where I got my FS7 back in October 2014, it was like 84th camera out of the line or something when most of the world was waiting theirs) and the boss gave me this same price. She also told me it is not some seasonal discount or introduction price, it is permanent price reduction and to this day the price remains that. She said very few people have bought them. Accessories still cost a lot, for example the viewfinder is 34000RMB

 

[David Peterson]

As well as the FS7, I'd suggest you seriously consider the Sony FS5 as well. While I have loved shooting with the FS7, the FS5 is even smaller and lighter! Great for long long days run and gun with a camera, plus one of the minor annoyances with the FS7 was its sluggish menus, the FS5 is meant to be much snappier.

Plus the FSraw from the FS5 is much more worthwhile doing than with the FS7.

Talking about Varicam LT... it costs 12000 USD here in China. It has been discounted like this since May and I think it is because it is not selling well at all. It would be good camera (much better than FS7 I believe) if you can shoot it yourself but might be hard to rent out. And if you are upset when camera that you bought looses value in a sudden heartbeat then LT might not be good investment cause based on the price here, I would expect they'd have to cut prices soon else where too (if they haven't yet)

Wow! That is very cheap. Could you link to that please?

is $16.5K in the USA.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226386-REG/panasonic_au_v35lt1g_varicam_lt_4k_s35.html

 

[Tuomas Hakala]

Wow! That is very cheap. Could you link to that please?

The stores don't really have websites here but some sell through taobao.com where you could just search it. I don't know what kind of results it will give you as someone who is not located within the China. For me I can find many adds with 84800 there which I believe is genuine price since it is close to the price I got from the dealer. Problem with taobao is that if you just look at the prices, you can find some really crazy cheap stuff on almost any product which are usually fake (and i can find much cheaper adds for this cam too than 84k). What tells you what is real is checking how many units that store has sold them. Unfortunately for this cam on taobao, I can't see any sales made by any of the vendor (no matter the price) which I think is signals more about the fact that this kind of large purchases people usually make in real stores where they can try the stuff out and since this cameras demand is almost non-existant according to the dealer (and the fact that it is so heavily discounted from the beginning) the minority that would be willing to buy this camera and minority that would be willing to buy purchase of this size in taobao seems to be 0 in country of this size. For comparison on taobao, cameras that sell well like FS7, also only have like 3-4 buyers per valid store.. so really very few people are willing to shop cameras online here

 

[HD Hildebrand]

What is this talk about FS7 and it being better for run and gun then the dragon. First off - the question involved Dragon vs fs7 with odyssey. And people think FS7 with odyssey is more capable for run and gun???? Are you kidding? Just finished a 4 day run and gun with the fs7 and odyssey and I hated it! Pain in the frickin' ass. Hate cameras that are tethered to other crap. So many extra things to manage, rig, go wrong, power, cable, review, playback for client. Hate, hate, hate. And if you're doing it without a camera assistant and DIT - good luck. Also shot a feature with the c500 tethered to the odyssey. Sure, image is fine in the end, but it's slow, cumbersome, and I am so much more nimble with the dragon. With 512gb cards I can keep rolling. Downloads can happen without digging down a dozen levels to find clips. Not dealing with merges. Menu system is not as stupidly insane as the fs7 and I can one-man-band it if I need to. The only thing that would make either of these cameras more "run-n-gun" are zoom lenses that are 2.8 (or less), light weight, and a range of 17mm-200mm - but that still ain't happening.

 

[Levi Arnold]

Stick with your dragon and work with the start-up time and ISO.

i tried fs7, fs5, and f5 as a replacement to me Epic-D and it sucked balls. The image just isn't as good as dragon and it takes longer to switch settings around. It's a tank to use as RAW.

thats super basic and simple but I really think after a few weeks you'll be missing the dragon a LOT.

 

[David Peterson]

The stores don't really have websites here but some sell through taobao.com where you could just search it. I don't know what kind of results it will give you as someone who is not located within the China. For me I can find many adds with 84800 there which I believe is genuine price since it is close to the price I got from the dealer. Problem with taobao is that if you just look at the prices, you can find some really crazy cheap stuff on almost any product which are usually fake (and i can find much cheaper adds for this cam too than 84k). What tells you what is real is checking how many units that store has sold them. Unfortunately for this cam on taobao, I can't see any sales made by any of the vendor (no matter the price) which I think is signals more about the fact that this kind of large purchases people usually make in real stores where they can try the stuff out and since this cameras demand is almost non-existant according to the dealer (and the fact that it is so heavily discounted from the beginning) the minority that would be willing to buy this camera and minority that would be willing to buy purchase of this size in taobao seems to be 0 in country of this size. For comparison on taobao, cameras that sell well like FS7, also only have like 3-4 buyers per valid store.. so really very few people are willing to shop cameras online here

Interesting, thank you. So best to contact one of the Chinese brick and mortar stores directly. What is the Chinese equivalent of B&H and Adorama?