concerned director with red questions

[Oliver Peters]

veebis,

So far, this discussion seems to have been focused on production, but don't forget post. Since you are concerned about the cost differences, what is your plan for editing, DI, etc? How were you going to post the EX1 footage? What is the final intended distribution format?

- Oliver

 

[Sam Roberts]

I agree that it is very heavy. If you are comparing it with a EX1 than be prepared for a very different working style. Forget about quickly grabbing the camera to see how it looks from that angle - you have to plan your shots ahead. You need a camera team that gets the camera on and off the operators shoulder for each shot, you need at least two assistants to change a lens, get it on a tripod, move it to a new set-up and so on. And if you do use support you need heavy support. Heavy tripods, cranes, dollies, etc.

This is true with the camera fully loaded. But for hand held you can strip it down and get it about the same weight as a Betacam: use the 16GB cards to record on. Take off the top rails and mounts including the handle if you want. Dump the mattebox and use screw in filters (with RED 18-50 or still lenses. Use a couple of carbon rods on the bottom with a couple of RED handles. Use the battery holder that snaps on to your belt. Use the small LCD with a shade if shooting outdoors. Quite comfortable.

 

[veebis]

So far, this discussion seems to have been focused on production, but don't forget post. Since you are concerned about the cost differences, what is your plan for editing, DI, etc? How were you going to post the EX1 footage? What is the final intended distribution format?

Post is pretty much "what I do" (VFX artist by trade), so pipeline questions were the first I made sure to get answered. So far, everything I've seen/heard is that the MacPro/FCP/Color workflow has been sorted out.

Of course, I'm open to warnings on this front as well!

Mostly it's down to actual shooting practicality, specifically nimbleness/mobility. We're talking minimal $$, mostly handheld, likely in hot temps (shooting in August), so the smaller/cooler/lighter alternatives (front-runners=HPX170, EX1/3) present far fewer variables and potential on-set gotchas.

As I mentioned, a Red One (with basic lens) is "available" to us, and it seems a shame to squander that... It's just a matter of making sure what, exactly, the potential gotchas are with it, and weighing that against the alternatives.

 

[jimhare]

I would suggest the bottom line is simple. Red will require more effort and commitment, but your end result will be miles ahead so if your film turns out the way you want, you will be able to take it much much further simply because you shot on Red.

If you are talented and willing to put in the effort, it doesn't need to cost more, you can do pretty much everything yourself on a Mac Pro.

As for lights, you may want a few more to really bring out the best, but your call. Put in as much as you can afford and make the best of it. It will work.

Red makes all the difference. Use it.

 

[Pete Ford]

Don't forget about lighting!

Don't forget about lighting!

There is another issue that should be taken into consideration here and that's lighting.

If this is a micro or no budget feature chances are there is little or no dollars put aside for a gaffa or lighting package. If there are a lot of scenes inside with an eye to shooting only with available or prac light then I'd suggest that you go with the EX1 or another fast hi-def video format, but...

...if you're intending to EVER show the film at market or in a cinema there is no choice; RED.

You have to get the best pictures you can so you can compete for the seat against every other mirco-budget film out there, especially since you already have the post covered.

As for the issues of wrangling a RED rig: We're in the middle of two projects that total 18 weeks of shooting. Very small crews (4) and very mobile literally covering all of Australia and big chunk of China. We are shooting primes (LOMO 2:35) so it's heavy, but no heavier than an ARRI 35 kit. I shot a chunk of THE BANK JOB on the ARRI D20 and can vouch that RED beats the shit out that monster when it comes to portability. It's comparable with a kitted up F900/950 with Digi Primes so most crews (professional) won't bitch too much about weight... unless you're paying them in sandwiches and the operator is the DP with no assistant to help with the load, then you'll never hear the end of it.

2K versus 4K? No contest. 4K. Worth the Data Wrangling pain - and the post pain to have a product that has a chance of recouping.

 

[Oliver Peters]

Post is pretty much "what I do" (VFX artist by trade), so pipeline questions were the first I made sure to get answered. So far, everything I've seen/heard is that the MacPro/FCP/Color workflow has been sorted out.

Well, yes and no. If your comparison is RED post versus EX post, then RED will take longer, require more storage and require additional workflow steps. This isn't a criticism, but simply things to consider that will cost you money.

- Oliver

 

[Jason Sinclair]

I've been shooting hand held for the last three months, on nikon glass in available light. I think your question to ask yourself is what is the style you want to achieve. Do a test scene for a couple of days. Keep it basic. The weights fine. I have engineered a very low cost support bracket to keep the balance stable as the roll is ur enemy with this camera. I can tell you, this camera will leave that ex-1 in the dust... Half the time i forget to put my shoulder pad on and i'm not fit at all. I really feel no difference and actually prefer without it (easier to put down after each shot). I keep the battery on belt and made a few mods to keep the weight down. Fairly easy to do.

With focus, it's very easy to pick up with lcd. One of the problems is when shooting in low light and aperture wide. It is a challenge but if it's not a supreme problem at all.
I do this by feel rather than marks as it gets very organic (I run through the scene and just play untill i get the right feel). The focus becomes an extension of your body (I do my own focus) and the results are very good for me. Depends on your stylistics. Do a test with both cameras if u get the chance.

The results are just amazing. The key is in picking locations with good light. This camera was originally built for the low budget film maker in mind but of course it was so well made a lot of pros are getting into it and of course they have a familiar way to work because they usually have access to larger budgets, and have ways of working that are entrenched in more traditional ways associated with older technology. However, don't let that dissuade you from achieving your goals. Do testing, you might be pleasantly surprised. Remember in recent years with films like Babel, Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, The lars von trier films, and Slum Dog Millionare, audiences are not only very forgiving of more Organic style film making they seem to actually be drawing to it as are a lot of high profile artists.

With post if you have access to the right tools, this is where the Red exceeds. It's very simple. You have RAW files and these files are highly manipulated as long as you keep clipping highlights to a minimum and keep a check on noise. It really is a straight forward process. You can edit the quicktime files straight in final cut off the disk and then process the 2k as a proxy process. A bit of research will set you straight. It's so easy but because of the noise on red user, it's hard to get the right info sometimes. It's a lot easier than ingesting by tape for me. Doing your basic color correction will be so much easier wether you choose to go yourself or bring someone else in (either way you are a better position). RAW is just easier to manipulate and is the key to this workflow. Say for instance you cut and get some interest or send it to a film festival and get accepted in. Then you have access to the original files which someone might at that stage give you some extra money to complete for the big screen. At that stage the ex-1 is going to cost you a lot more money to deal with and it will never compete. So why limit yourself from the start?

Do some camera testing. Do some post testing. I'm sure your cam owner will set aside a few hours to show you. Depends on your vision and style, but i'm pretty well sure you will go Red. Choose the right people to work with, keep reality in check with what you want to achieve with your budget and your value outcome will become evident.

As a director don't let the technology overtake your mind. A lot of camera pros job is to get the job done and thats their focus, that's why they aren't directors. It's up to the director to sort the look and therefore you must know what it is you are dealing with, so watch some films on your intended format and do testing yourself. There's a lot of vultures in this industry who will point you in a direction as it may benefit them. Thats life. As an artist you have to work around that. Your story remains King. If you keep your energy on that, it won't matter what camera you use.

 

[Mark K.]

If you're concerned about the weight and focus pulling requirements of a camera like the Red One for your shoot, you may want to consider some of the lighter 2/3" alternatives (which would help address both of those issues).

The SI-2K and HPX-500 are both excellent 2/3" options, and weight-wise would be more appropriate for a primarily hand-held production.

 

[Ian Laurie]

Really when it comes down to it, you need to ask yourself if it is worth the extra work. The camera is excellent, and with some skill, will produce a great result. I would suggest talking to the camera owner and sitting down with them and going over any fears you have with them and your cam op and DOP. hopefully the owner is responsible enough to be honest with you regarding any potential pitfalls.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

well, the other day I shot my first commercial with my RED, it was a low, low budget production, just me (Director, DOP, Data wrangler, Producer etc...), a Gaffer, a Spark, makeup and the 5 actors.(no sound) We had one 1K Tungs, one 575 HMI and some white bounce. We shot interior, exterior, on a head and hand held, 4 locations. I went really well, it is heavy, but not too bad. I was tired at the end of the day, but it look real good to me. Much better than my EX3 or EX1 or any other video camera I have shot with. It was like shooting on the Arri SR super 16, as I still don't have my Nikon adaptor, and had to use the only lens I had, an Angenieux 17-70 f2.2 Super 16 lens, and one 8GB card (spent some time transfering to my MacBookPro, between scenes....)
Still, I would do it again...