Compulsory Whining, Pricing FUD, Sky is falling...

[Mark L. Pederson]

Did I miss something? I don't see any concrete posts about Scarlet's price going up...

No ... you didn't miss much. Lots of FUD and whining.

 

[Stuart English]

Scarlet 2/3"

Scarlet 2/3"

Screwed is buying a 5Dii for video and then finding out what it's really capable of.

Buying a **** and finding out what it can do, then buying a **** "because it's better", and then a **** because...

Insert any three random camera model numbers in the above sentence and you have described the entry level pro camera market.


So best to chill out about Scarlet, features and pricing. Its going to kick butt and it'll be here soon enough.

And really chill out about REDCODE 42 v's 100 - have you any idea how insanely good REDCODE 42 is ?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think people have selective memories... EPIC S35 started out around $40K (I forgot the actual number). I think people have forgotten that.

Jim

Hasn't shipped yet, who knows what the final price might be.

However REDOne got a small price bump prior to release--hence the pre-order red accessory credit. Didn't the EVF go up a little bit too? You are right though the FF35 did get a small price cut, just enough to convince me to upsize. :auto:

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'm sorry that my post had such an inflamatory reception.

The problem is that Scarlet rised the hopes of people that now may not be able to afford... RED fairness or commitment and competence has nothing to do with it, it's just how things turned out.

I hope in the future RED is able to provide more for even less (because that's what's happening now, why shouldn't it keep going?

 

[Steven Caesare]

I guess there are various thresholds for being screwed. All I know is that the only price increase relative to Scarlet is for the fixed 2/3-inch, whose price has increased 25% ($750) since its original design (for the basic kit). But the basic kit reportedly has only one CF slot (vs. the original's two slots), probably the smaller LCD (vs. the original's 4.8-inch), and no HD-SDI port (HD-SDI was specced for the original Scarlet). If this is true, it might bring the the fixed's cost to $5,000 to $6,000 to match the original Scarlet's functionality. I consider a 66% to 100% price increase screwing us, at least relative to the hyped price of the original design. But that's just me. And the original was specced to support Redcode up to 100 MBps rather than only 42 MBps. I'm expecting a further price increase for the fixed Scarlet, which would be questionable in this economy.

Dude, if you paid money for a product you didn't get, you got screwed.

If you were awake when the guy talking about plans for a product signed his email with "Everything subject to change, count on it", then you didn't get screwed, you just don't comprehend real well.

-sc

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Jason, I actually remember it as a 5k+ drop for FF35, and where S35 Scarlet dropped 2-3k. My memory isn't great nowadays but the info is here somewhere if anyone feels like using their good searching skills.

Didn't lot of specs go up?

If I remember correctly, Scarlets had very normal overcranking specs when they were first announced on the 3rd. Then Jim did something about it when tons of people started politely commenting what a pity it was that they weren't going to be able to do much real slow motion. And he added a very generous serving, double the standard of 60fps, and remember that this is RAW 2k and not 4:2:2 1080p. There is even a 150fps burst! S35 and FF35 Scarlets also get an additional 12fps above all (much more expensive!) top shelf cameras, other than the Phantom, which costs $100k more than a Red One.

OK, back to the important stuff of asking questions! What lens is this? I don't recall a 2.8 lens that goes 10-what ever it ends at.

That looks like an RPP, either the 50mm, 85mm, or 100mm. The wider apertures are obscured but they are there. And the scale in the front is focusing distance, also showing only a portion of the scale.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Why did people have to ruin the good ol' days? :frown2:

No kidding. Man, the business philosphy of RED has been just as much a part of the magic as the products.

I wish folks like this would go start "selfentitledwhiners.net" and go hang out there all the while we get frank discussion with the guy who's as giddy about building the terminator cams as we are about seeing them.

-sc

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Dude, if you paid money for a product you didn't get, you got screwed.

If you were awake when the guy talking about plans for a product signed his email with "Everything subject to change, count on it", then you didn't get screwed, you just don't comprehend real well.

-sc

I comprehended fine. But you can announce anything you want. Until it's delivered, it's vaporware. And when it's delivered, it'll be measured against the original announcment. You comprehend, dude?

 

[Steven Caesare]

....And when it's delivered, it'll be measured against the original announcment....

Incorrect.

The whole product line refresh was about as public as it could be... If you honestly felt the original announcement was still in effect, then I can't halp ya.

I'll not say more, as Jason already suggested this get back on topic, so you can have the last word if you want, but if you accapt Jim's posts, you gotta accpet them all... including the part about changing....


I'm done.

-sc

 

[Jon Howe]

Sorry for my speculative comment. I was just trying to convey that RED has always been SO good to their followers - I remember back in the day when they were asking questions on DVXuser to see what WE wanted in a camera.

I have total faith in Jim and Crew. I consider myself to be a lifelong RED customer despite the fact I haven't made a purchase from them yet. (Okay, I bought a hat).

I'm really grateful that they are doing what they are doing in the way they are doing it. Their openness and candor here on the forums - letting us watch as they build their products - it'll all unlike any major business I've ever seen.

Jim, I'll do my best to afford what you make. I'm totally down with everything being subject to change.

 

[Tim Sutherland]

I'm just excited to find out how much everything will cost so I can find out how much I have to beg, borrow, or steal to get some flavor of 2/3" scarlet and the necessay ( for my purposes, not quite sure what that means yet) and then buid the camera up more when I can afford it. In the end I'll be glad I spent less than Panny or Sony would have me pay just to meet my bare minimum requirements to make it worth ownng something I can get value out of.

Jim, take the necessary time, I'll be saving and not complaining because whenever I figure out how to get one of these things it will be amazing.

 

[Alan Skinner]

Amazing how the word whiner is so close to the word weiner.......

 

[Josiah Burdick]

There are those that make something from whatever they have and others who complain about what they don't get...

Reminds me of SS shooting Ché with absolutely NO FEATURES WHATSOEVER... on Build 4 (or whatever it was).

Jim

It's usually the vocal ones who have the worst attitudes. Don't let it get to you. There are hundreds of us who can't wait to see what red delivers. Less features and in my hand is always better than more features and not.

 

[Michael Dalton]

LETS GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK! We are blowing the best opportunity to get info we've had these camera. Let's not waste Jim's or anyone else's time here.

 

[Thor Melsted]

I'm just excited to find out how much everything will cost so I can find out how much I have to beg, borrow, or steal to get some flavor of 2/3" scarlet

My humble advice: Just assume you'll need at least $10k to get a simple base 2/3" setup ready to shoot. Then, if you can get away with less than that, you have more $ for your next project - or for more accessories.

This has been my plan since November of '08.
I have been and will remain patient. I know I won't have a low serial # on my Scarlet, but whenever my turn comes, I'll be jumping for joy.
I've seen enough from this company to trust that I'll be getting insane value for my $. Even if I had $50k to spend that would still hold true.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Incorrect.

The whole product line refresh was about as public as it could be... If you honestly felt the original announcement was still in effect, then I can't halp ya.

Look, we disagree. From my comments, I obviously don't feel the the original announcement is still in effect. If you read closely, you'd have understood that. As I said, any subsequent announcements would be judged in light of the original announcements. It's like a judge ruling against a motion in court and instructing the jury to disregard testimony or a lawyer's comments -- it's unrealistic to assume it'll will be done. Red made pronouncements in April 2008 that it thought were reasonable and realistic, as in "We believe we can give you X for Y dollars." Then about 8 months later -- when technology should be better and cheaper -- they said, in effect, "Well, maybe we can give you less than X, but now it'll cost you 1.25Y dollars." Now, a year and a half after the original announcement, Jim's comments have convinced me that the original vision has been further eroded, and that the price, for diminished specs (relative to the original specs) will be higher still. If these increases were spread over the whole product line and Red humbly acknowledged that they arrogantly goofed, then fine. It's the "We can announce anything we want, but when we tell you to forget we ever said it, please do so" attitude that I have trouble with.

 

[Milan O.]

I've been budgeting/doing pre production work for a surf film I wanna start sometime in 2010.....looks like as far as equipment goes I can wipe that spreadsheet clean and get ready to start over.

oh well

edit: that just means I will wait longer to start if I need to raise more money...either way I don't have enough to get what I want based on speculative prices so its not a big deal

Peter, you'll have to consider the options. Should RED have built a camera without features to fit your wallet and make a lot of customers disappointed?

Look, I myself am not a rich man but if I really want something I work to get it. In my case it has been expensive guitars, music recording equipment and bikes. Guess I have expensive hobbies. Now I'm interested in buying a camera for making documentaries. I'll probably spend a lot of money but the trick I've learned is to buy something that I won't regret buying and something that can be used for a long period of time.

For a while I considered the EX1 or EX3 but l was lucky and talked to a friend who mentioned RED, I didn't know about RED before. I'm a bit surprised that this needs explaining but here we go: the thing is that the way these new RED cameras are built is ingenious. Not only considering the value for money, but the fact that you only need to upgrade the brain if you need changes is not only fantastic for your economy but also for the environment (which is very important). Tell me one manufacturer except RED that can offer you this? Just one.
And the fact that the accessories from RED One can be used with Epic (and I guess Scarlet also) makes RED deserve even more respect, not only for considering their customers but also the environment.

What RED has done with this camera is something that many manufacturers of other products should follow. The Earth's resources aren't endless and by working this way RED show a more realistic approach towards manufacturing and technology, called sustainable development.

On the other hand, there are cheaper cameras that will probably work for you. Jim seems to be very clear on the point that everthying is a subject to change, and he's right. That's the way the Universe works, everything changes. Maybe it's time to accept it?

There's a saying in Sweden which goes "Du kan inte ha kvar kakan och äta upp den" which means that you can't keep the cake and eat it. Even though I don't own a Red (yet) my impression is that RED let's you keep a lot of the cake but you get to eat a lot more than you ever had before.
That is if you compare their offer with other manufacturers. And everything in life is relative.

To my opinion they seem to be doing an extremly good job. Compare RED's performance with a lot of other companies, hopefully that will help you to be a bit more understanding to what they do.

Peace.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

this thread has gotten way off track... Take it somewhere else, so we can bring this back on point.

Thanks.

later,
jason

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I'm not quite sure what this sentence means, but I think the real problem is that you're measuring (your idea of) the final product against its hype and completely ignoring how it compares to everything else out there that is in the same price range and/or form factor.

Interesting, but irrelevant. I'm measuring against what Red originally specced. Microsoft (as well as others) has crushed competition by overpromising. Sadly, it invariably underdelivers.

I mean, if a guy says he's going to give you a hundred bucks for no reason, and then when he reaches into his pocket only gives you fifty, you're going to start claiming you've been screwed?

Red's not giving anyone anything. They are offering you something in exchange for a consideration, or more basically, they are selling you products. If they said the price, for a diminished set of specs, is now doubled, would you feel so happy?

You're also ignoring what has changed for the positive here—perhaps because you only care about certain things, and so they don't apply, even if the rest of the cinematographers and wannabe cinematographers would've been happy to pay double for them. We're getting:
* Option re: interchangeable vs. fixed, with a set of lenses to go with.

I don't know how many people -- raw number or percentage of potential 2/3-inch Scarlet users -- demanded interchangeable lenses, let alone would be willing to pay double for the feature. Do you?

* The ability to add a ton of battery life, a ton of storage, a ton of viewing and I/O options, or keep the thing completely lightweight, all while knowing that these additional components will be usable should I decide to upgrade from 2/3" to S35, Scarlet to Epic, or Scarlet to Scarlet II.

The original Scarlet's battery, storage, or I/O options were never specced, so I don't know.

* The ability to shoot to full-sensor 1080p.

The original design was supposed to support 1080p. Whether it was to be full-sensor was never announced. And before you mention frame-rate ramping, Ted Schilowitz has said that that was planned.

Don't get me wrong—a tiny little pocketable $3k 3K camera would have been great, but Red's since figured out that they have even more important things to do.

It was never pocketable. But if you're saying Red has abandoned a relatively full-featured, out-of-the-box complete low-end model, I hope that remains to be seen.

And "screwed"? Screwed is buying a 5Dii for video and then finding out what it's really capable of.

"Screwed" wasn't my term.

 

[Ruby Quincunx]

Look, we disagree. From my comments, I obviously don't feel the the original announcement is still in effect. If you read closely, you'd have understood that. As I said, any subsequent announcements would be judged in light of the original announcements. It's like a judge ruling against a motion in court and instructing the jury to disregard testimony or a lawyer's comments -- it's unrealistic to assume it'll will be done. Red made pronouncements in April 2008 that it thought were reasonable and realistic, as in "We believe we can give you X for Y dollars." Then about 8 months later -- when technology should be better and cheaper -- they said, in effect, "Well, maybe we can give you less than X, but now it'll cost you 1.25Y dollars." Now, a year and a half after the original announcement, Jim's comments have convinced me that the original vision has been further eroded, and that the price, for diminished specs (relative to the original specs) will be higher still. If these increases were spread over the whole product line and Red humbly acknowledged that they arrogantly goofed, then fine. It's the "We can announce anything we want, but when we tell you to forget we ever said it, please do so" attitude that I have trouble with.

Then please speak with your pocketbook when you get the opportunity, rather than mooting your dissatisfaction at such pointless length on this forum.