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Compulsory Whining, Pricing FUD, Sky is falling...

Ian B. Johnson said:
I've found this dichotomy very interesting over the past year. Many of the users here follow Steve's sentiments, while others see Lawrence's side. I'd like to see it talked over in a polite and civilized discussion... see where it goes.
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I've been offline for a few hours and I've just reviewed the additional posts on this thread since my last post.

Ok Ian...let's start the discussion you wanted here:

I have spent over $100,000 since August 2007 on multiple RED One cameras, lenses, and accessories from RED. I've been a paying customer of RED since day 1. I'm very happy as an actual paying customer of RED - with RED's pricing strategy and customer service. With this info considered, I may very accurately be termed a seasoned and experienced customer of RED's products.

Now, how about you Lawrence? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

And you Ian? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

I ask those questions because I'd like to be clear on if you have been an actual paying customer of RED - or are simply planning to be sometime in the future.

Ian, I think you'll find here that the people here who agree with my sentiments in my last post are almost all past paying customers of RED - like Ketch Rossi, etc. - and the ones who haven't been paying customers, but still agree with my sentiments have probably bought a lot of other camera systems and just clearly realize what an excellent performance to cost ratio RED products represent.

I also think the rest of the ones here who don't agree with my post have probably not been paying customers of RED, but for whatever reason they feel they need to criticize RED's pricing policies.

This will be a civil discussion gentlemen...and lets start with Lawrence and Ian. So what are your answers to my questions?
 
I understand that this is a Forum of public opinions,but some sure know how to talk nothing but nonsense and total BS, well some time I do to, but only some times, while some people here seem to get carried away and to this all the time, is getting really annoying far beyond acceptance levels!!

I particularly enjoy the way Jim decided to approach his new company "RED" and I kinda get away and browse this forum to read what friend are saying and in what way I can learn and in what way I can help others learn, but I surely enjoy Jim's posts about new upcoming gear such as EPIC, and SCARLET, with all the goodies to come, I never once worried about pricing, they are not done yet with the products, how can I ask for final pricing of something hasn't even been finished?!

People tend to forget what is available out there instead of the RED ONE or the Upcoming Scarlet and more so in place of EPIC, just today I unfortunately had no choice but put my self in the market for a Hasselblad 645, and we are talking about the super fast processing power at amazingly "39 FRAME per Minute" Helloooooo that is one frame every "1.4 SECONDS" !!!!

Here I'm talking my ASS away about the feature of EPIC 645 with my Hassy buddies, in the various MF forums, and just but dreaming at the soon to come feature of when the 645 Medium Pro Commercial Photographer world gets such a TOOL of literal WONDER, were no longer you count "SECONDS PER FRAME" but FRAME per SECOND" and may so very many, uh what 100fps many?

Now this is what I like to read about and the progress of RED and look at the great Renders that Jim puts time in to it, just to show us something to feed our hope that RED is working and good things are coming, so please let them come, and lets try to stop wyning about this and that all the F$!$@!$ TIME already, and just say "THANKS JIM, THAKS RED TEAM FOR KEEPING US AS INFORMED AS POSSIBLE, AND PUTTING EXTRA WORK JUST TO GIVE US SOME EYE KANDY WHILE WE WAIT"


THANKS
 
Steve Gibby said:
I've been offline for a few hours and I've just reviewed the additional posts on this thread.

Ok Ian...let's start the discussion you wanted here:

I have spent over $100,000 since August 2007 on multiple RED One cameras, lenses, and accessories from RED. I've been a paying customer of RED since day 1. I'm very happy as an actual paying customer of RED - with RED's pricing strategy and customer service. With this info considered, I may very accurately be termed a seasoned and experienced customer of RED's products.

Now, how about you Lawrence? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

And you Ian? What's the dollar amount of products you've actually bought from RED? Over how long a period of time?

I ask those questions because I'd like to be clear on if you have been an actual paying customer of RED - or are simply planning to be sometime in the future.

Ian, I think you'll find here that the people here who echo agree with my sentiments in my last post are almost all past paying customers of RED - like Ketch Rossi, - and the ones who haven't been paying customers, but still agree with my sentiments have probably bought a lot of other camera systems and just clearly realize what an excellent performance to cost ratio RED products represent.

I also think the rest of the ones here who don't agree with my post have probably not been paying customers of RED, but they feel they need to criticize RED's pricing policies.

Its annie up time gentlemen...and lets start with Lawrence and Ian. So what are your answers to my questions?
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Hey Steve,

Thanks for the response. As for me, I'm not yet a paying Red customer. But you are, and this is what I find so interesting- it says a heck of a lot for the company, seeing almost all current customers completely satisfied despite the delays and hiccups that came with the One. As it stands right now, I'm mostly frustrated because I don't have my Scarlet yet, nor do I know when I'll get it.

Judging by the current attitudes of Red customers, I feel once we get our Red equipment we'll be satisfied. But until that time comes, each subsequent delay or reduction of specs is hard to take. There's nothing illogical about these regressions- Red is pushing the envelope of both product capabilities and system cost, and there are certain things that just can't be changed. Red is certainly not going to lose money on each sale just to stick to their original announcement, nor are they going to scam us into overpaying. Current owners and new customers are stuck here- you'll continue supporting the company that supports you, and we'll continue as (rightful) skeptics until we're convinced it's all good. Neither one is wrong, in fact I think both groups are quite right in their opinions. Current customers become loyal subscribers to and supporters of the Red model, and potential customers push Red to earn their business by creating the absolute best products possible.

Does that make sense?
 
Steve Gibby said:
As one of the very first customers of RED, along with my friends Mark Pedersen, Blair, Billy, Shawn, Dino, and many others, I'd like to say that RED has always priced their products at a very generous level to their customers. The performance to price ratio of RED One, and the RED lenses has been nothing short of phenomenal!

One of Jim Jannard's key traits is fairness - he consistently under-promises and over-delivers. Those of you on this thread complaining about prices of products, when they haven't even been finalized and posted, need to seriously step back two squares, re-evaluate your attitudes, and just hold on until the prices are finalized - and when they are, I guarantee you they will be at a good, fair price level.

A fiscally healthy RED company benefits us all - let's not begrudge them their just revenue. All of my friends on RED Team absolutely bust their asses 20 hours a day, seven days a week, to crank out these great products for us. We need to thank them for their efforts, and realize that they absolutely deserve to make a good living for what they do.

I own RED One serial number 0008 and two other very, very early REDs - and I couldn't be happier with RED's prices and customer service.

Please think before you post your product price worries - and realize that whatever the prices are they will be set at a more than fair level. RED has more than earned our respect - let's give it to them.

RED has always been more than fair with us...and I never see that changing...

Just sayin'...
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Thanks Steve. I agree, Red has been more than fair. I'm coming at this from the bottom of the wallet so to speak. I afforded Red by co-owning it with my dad (and it took us over a year of saving up plus a loan just to slide sideways into a basic package). We've paid for every single upgrade simply through rental revenue and personal money, I have bled for everything I've got and it's all been worth it. Red's service and attitude is completely unmatched in all of my experiences. It is a pleasure to wire them money that I didnt know was possible for me to amass, because it's worth it. Since i got my RPPs i feel I have a brand new camera.

Shout out to my wife for nearly four years of marriage without any vacations because all excess funds get spent on Red and accs :-). A few summers ago there was a Timberland song that had the refrain 'I aint got no money, but I'm the one that loves you best' so I'd always sing it back to her 'I aint got no money, spent it all on Red, but I'm the one...' haha.

So just to get it from someone who bleeds for his Red, it's worth it.
 
Okay sorry for the rant, has been a long day and Hasselblad H3DII-39 isn't cheap either, neither has the Epic numbers, but will do till then, and we are here in support of RED, no matter what, I'm good in giving away stuff selling half price and shit, so well, when time comes this will be just an other piece of gear to forget about it ":).

Sorry again if it seemed a rant out of place, but again tired and don't like to come in to my favorite Forum, and read so much nonsense.
 
Jannard said:
This thread started down a good path. It has a LOT of views for good reason. The announcement will come sometime this month. Why not hold off speculation (and any celebration or disappointment) until you know exactly what the situation is?

If this debate continues without any info whatsoever... I'll need to shut this thread down. That will really piss me off. Just so you know.

BTW... thanks Ian for helping to get this back under control.

Jim
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Happy to help, Jim.
 
Jannard said:
Why not hold off speculation (and any celebration or disappointment) until you know exactly what the situation is?
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Yes, everyone here does seem to be making a big deal out of nothing - several pages worth of post seem to have been made by people somehow suddenly jumping to the conclusion that Scarlet has multiplied in price, just from a little hint that some of the products might be priced differently...

I know that everyone who's been here from the early days really values RED's openness, and I hope that this silly speculation isn't going to hurt that.
 
Stuart English said:
Buying a **** and finding out what it can do, then buying a **** "because it's better", and then a **** because...

Insert any three random camera model numbers in the above sentence and you have described the entry level pro camera market.


So best to chill out about Scarlet, features and pricing. Its going to kick butt and it'll be here soon enough.

And really chill out about REDCODE 42 v's 100 - have you any idea how insanely good REDCODE 42 is ?
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I do, we just shot two weekends in a row with Redcode 42 and Build 21 and my jaw is still dragging on the floor... seriously... all this Epic and Scarlet stuff is exciting as hell... but RED ONE with Build 21 and Redcode 42 is fucking sick good people... if you cant afford it, Im sorry. then RENT. BORROW, BEG its friggin amazing.

Or better yet, focus on story and/or getting clients... and come on, RED hasn't announced anything yet... wtf? chillax !!

What are your alternatives sub $5000? (if the price gets that high) EX-1 HVX-200 or HP 170?? then add LEtus/Brevis adapter and lenses... and dont even mention STILL cameras that record H.264... or AVCHD motion... with horrific audio... puh lease...

Steve Gibby... rock on dude.

Most importantly, remember , the "how" is irrelevant if you have the right attitude. Good things come to those who wait... all delays are divine... READ: insert your favorite cliche'... these guys went from SCAM to soon to be offering a 3 effin K camera for under $5K. and your bitching? ... huh?
 
Just FYI, I think the retitling of this thread was a bit heavy handed by the mods... As potential customers we have the right to question pricing, specs, etc, especially on a forum. I think this sort of 'moderating' is a bit extreme. It was indeed irrelevant to the thread it was in (to some degree), thus moving it was certainly appropriate, but is the harsh judgement really necessary?
 
Ian, you seem like a reasonable fellow. But you started a thread questioning pricing that does NOT exist... you reap what you sow man. Know what I mean? the good news is you sound passionate about owning a RED product and that is great. All we (red defenders) are saying is it sounds petty and mean spirited to be questioning... well, conjecture. Know what I mean?

Let's find out out the facts, and go from there. If the product has improved exponentially while developing it, then wouldn't you want to charge a little more to cover those costs?... or would you prefer they stuck to price and sacrificed features? I imagine that as they work on this stuff, they have "aha moments" all the time and are smart enough to think... "well, it will cost a little more but the benefits are worth it"

SO far they have exceeded expectations and lets not forget with the camera comes FREE software like Redcine-x and free firmware upgrades... and on and on.

Don't take it personally. We all want RED to be around a long time, and as much as Jim has stated he over and over he is not in this to pad the bottom line, its a business with costs and most of us are extremely grateful for that generosity and mantra. Make sense?
 
Steve Gibby said:
I have spent over $100,000 since August 2007 on multiple RED One cameras, lenses, and accessories from RED. I've been a paying customer of RED since day 1. I'm very happy as an actual paying customer of RED - with RED's pricing strategy and customer service. With this info considered, I may very accurately be termed a seasoned and experienced customer of RED's products.

I also think the rest of the ones here who don't agree with my post have probably not been paying customers of RED, but for whatever reason they feel they need to criticize RED's pricing policies.

This will be a civil discussion gentlemen...and lets start with Lawrence and Ian. So what are your answers to my questions?
Click to expand...

The alternate way to look at this is that some of us aren't yet customers because RED hasn't yet delivered the camera that we personally would feel the compulsion or need to own. And that we're the market that RED needs to listen to if it wants to expand its customer base.

It's a bit of self selection to say there is nothing wrong with RED's offerings when you're already a customer. It's important to listen to non-customers because they can offer insight into why they haven't yet invested a large sum of money themselves.

I personally haven't yet bought any RED products because I decided ownership of a REDOne wasn't a sensible course of action for my ambitions and goals in life. Which isn't to say that RED can't sell me a product that would meet my personal needs. By listening to people such as myself who haven't directly purchased RED products RED opens its market to new customers. New Customers who might have different needs than existing customers.

Personally a $3k increase in price wouldn't matter much. But for a student that would easily put it out of their price range and be a very different buying experience than my own. Which is to say I would buy less accessories but not really be too noticeably affected. In your case $3k would be an even smaller drop in the bucket.

I'm not saying that RED is going to increase their prices. I'm just responding to the notion that you need to be a customer to have RED's pricing policies affect you. For instance I probably will never be a 3k scarlet customer. So the student who has been saving for the last 3 years actually in my view has a more important voice in pricing and features than I do. I'm not the target market.

And I wager a customer who spends $100k in goods will probably get a lot more perks down the road than the customer who spends $4k or even $20k. If you fly first class the seats are comfy and the food is good. :D Same airline, different experience.
 
why are people complaining????
If you can not afford a cinema camera.. then dont buy it! rent.. or buy a cheaper camera.

people complaining because the price may increase... PLEASE!!!

RED is not obligated to please you.
what they are coming up with will be worth whatever they charge
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
I imagine that as they work on this stuff, they have "aha moments" all the time and are smart enough to think... "well, it will cost a little more but the benefits are worth it"
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Assuming you can afford it. But if they doubled the price and the framerate offerings I would take my money elsewhere.

Just because it's better doesn't necessarily make it worth the extra cost. I recognize the superiority of the Epic line. I don't see it being worth the extra cost. Maybe for rental, but not for me personally 99% of the time.

I recognize the value of an Enzo doesn't mean I would personally spend the money on it. Sometimes you have to deliver a substandard product at a lower price or run the risk of inching your way into a new price class.

If you have a student with $3k saved and they can afford a camera which shoots 120fps but you can get 150fps for another $600 that might be worth it to some, but it also means that student suddenly can't afford it at all, in which case they get 0fps, which is worse than 120. :D

"Worth it" is completely relative.
 
Gavin,

Though those are some interesting perspectives, those who have actually spent money on RED products and used them in the field regularly are logically and naturally much more qualified to judge what is/was a a good deal in those specific products and others like them - and what has a good performance to price ratio.

Many people sit on their laptops combing tech forums all day every day - and then somehow feel they are experts on the actual field use of equipment they read about - and its true performance to price ratio. They're deluding themselves though. Its the people who actually buy the equipment, and are expert enough to push it to its limits, who are in the best position to judge what was a good buy and what wasn't.

The people who raise the funds to buy equipment, put it to good use, and are happy with it, are actually the core of the expanding purchaser base for new products. They have the equipment to help generate the revenue to buy more equipment, and if they're happy with the company they have bought from, they naturally tend to continue to buy more products from that company as their businesses grow. Beyond that, happy customers tend to spread the word about their happy purchases - which in a modern, online world fuels viral marketing. So I disagree - it is the satisfied customers of a company which not only buy increasing amounts of products they are happy with - but also fuel viral marketing.

All successful businesses realize that it is much more fiscally viable, and costs much less per customer, to retain existing customers, rather than mine new ones. In this business, the best advertising is word of mouth - and satisfied customers talk a lot about what they like, others listen, and more product is sold. That's not to say mining new customers isn't important - they are - but they are very effectively reached by reports form others who have bought what they're interested, in, and in turn give their feelings on it and its value.

For any businessman like myself, a penny saved is a penny earned. We don't get successful by throwing money around needlessly. That said, we also come over time to recognize value and good deals in our purchases.

The bottom line is we all vote with our wallets. Those of us who have voted heavily with our wallets, are seasoned professionals in this industry, and have succeeded in this business in large measure because we've learned what to buy, for how much, and how to use it, are naturally impatient with people who haven't bought the products, many times are not seasoned industry veterans, haven't used them, and yet they feel the need to whine and spread FUD on forums - especially when its about things that are pure conjecture. Very few of the guys who have the funds to buy this equipment were just handed the money by a rich Uncle - they earned it and know how and where to spend it.

The truth is that the specifications and prices of the new RED products have not even been announced - so this whining and FUD is a tempest in a tea pot.

Now, just like with RED One, after the prices and specifications are finalized, there will still be some "armchair experts" here who find something to complain about. That's human nature and the law of averages.

I have great empathy for those who are just starting out and are budget challenged - I was once there, as was every one of the seasoned pros on this board. That's why I take my time whenever I can to visit here, give my input, and advise just about anyone who civilly asks me a question. But if anyone who is new to this industry wants advice from experienced veterans, you better be able to be quiet at times and just listen - that's your fast track to success.

I'm all about constructive input - the key word being constructive. But it is ludicrous to even be having the discussions on this thread until after the specifications and prices have been finalized and announced. If some RED price complainers would spend a lot less time online complaining, and a lot more time out working and finding work, they'd probably be able to afford their dream camera system much sooner.

Its late and I have an early get up tomorrow, so I don't know how much longer I'll be online tonight. Lets everyone take a chill pill and just wait until the official prices and specs are finalized. But mark my words - there will be chorus of whiners then too. There was when R1 was finalized, and with each product RED has introduced.
 
As my post in the other thread is kind of the starting point of this discussion I will say one last word about this topic.
All I did was add the then still present numbers of the guestimation prices of the Fixed Lens Scarlet and stated what a good price it had and that I hoped that that part hasn't been subject to change. And with good I meant "low" not "value/dollar".
Jim then quoted that, saying, as he often does, that everything is subject to change.
I read into that, maybe falsly, that the prices might be adjusted to something higher than they were.
I respect all you RED-Owners deeply, specially the directors and DoPs, because of your knowledge and experience but I ask you please to remember what it was like when you first started out.
Many people, who are not REDowners, hope for a professional camera that they can afford. The announcement of the Scarlet is the first camera ever to offer professional hardware for a prosumer price. Nobody has ever doubted the professionality of the Scarlet as it will be. At least I haven't.
I just know that I have a limit to what I can invest (right now) in a semi-professional hobby that might become more some day.
Sorry if that annoys you.
 
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