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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Compulsory Whining, Pricing FUD, Sky is falling...

There are two sides to this coin, and I think that everyone just needs to take a deep breath. At this point, RED is just sharing information. There are still things we don't know, and it's RED's prerogative to address those questions as they see fit. But the level of back and forth about details that haven't been revealed yet is crazy.

First of all, Jim has never said anything about an absolute price increase. They've removed all of the pricing information from the Epic and Scarlet information pages, so right now there isn't anything concrete to go on... we just have to wait. All Jim said was "stay tuned" and his usual "everything is subject to change." Of course that leaves us in the dark for another month, but that's just something we have to deal with.

To that hand, I can understand the frustration of some users who read posts like this one:

We have just made a number of final changes to our program. It has become clear that our competition is finally paying attention to what we are doing so this time we will NOT announce what the changes are.

I will say the following:

1. No negative price/performance changes.
2. Only positive feature and system changes.
3. No additional slip to the target schedule.

that say very definitively things like "final changes" have been made, and there will be "no negative price/performance changes." Of course there are always unforeseen circumstances that affect development and production. But what is one supposed to think with a barrage of messages that say conflicting statements? There will be no negative price/performance changes, but everything is subject to change? I'm not sure what to take from that but to wait until the next "definitive" announcement (that is subject to change). Basically, I've learned not to accept anything as final until I've paid for it and it is in my hands. To a degree, it makes people guarded about the kind of information that is released, though, because we've learned that nothing really is final until it's final... and sometimes that means we can't get as excited as I think Jim would like us to be. When we hear things like "3K for $3K!," people get excited... so if that target slips a little, then their frustration is, I think, understandable - even if the price change is completely reasonable. RED made a change to their policy this year by holding back on information until they were more ready to release it. I think perhaps they should do this with pricing targets as well.

I know that what Jim & Co. have taken on is extraordinary, risky, and monumental. They have done what no other camera company would have even come close to bringing to the table for at least a decade and have certainly made a lot of people excited about what digital filmmaking has to offer. None of what they have accomplished should be understated.

That being said, they have a dramatic way about doing things. It's just their style. Some people say it's "brilliant marketing" (others bash them for it), but I don't think it's marketing as much as it is genuine passion that resonates with their audience. Sometimes they get a little sensitive to posts because they know firsthand the incredible advances they're making and we don't always have the information. So there's a bit of a disconnect there. And perhaps they bite off more than they can chew sometimes, but they choose to figure it out and (over)deliver on their promises even if it means missing their targeted schedule. It frustrates people, but again, ends up being the right choice in the end.

I think all discussion about price should just stop completely until the October announcement is made and things are made more clear. And I think that RED needs to understand that there's no way they can please everyone, regardless of how amazing your products are, and you just have to let the obscene amount of crazy posts roll off your shoulders. It's just really not worth getting worked up about.

In my opinion, these new renders are nice - but nearly all of this stuff has been on the table (literally) since the NAB party in April and even more recently at IBC. Do some searching and practically all of the questions that are being asked have been answered by RED in some capacity or another several times over. What is still unknown will be made plenty clear by RED when they lay everything out before the cameras are made available. Until then, rest assured that RED is committed to bringing the best quality products at the most reasonable prices they can to everyone. They've not given us a reason to doubt that up to this point.
 
But isn't that 'whiny' attitude the sort of attitude that created RED in the first place? Did you ever consider purchasing a D20? (Trick question I know since they weren't for sale... but hypothetically)

Sony wasn't listening to the market, Arri wasn't listening to the market, JVC, Panasonic... nobody was... nobody except RED. And for those whom the REDOne was a good fit and had at least $25k RED delivered.

When the REDOne was released you made the savvy business decision that it would be a great investment. So did I--that for me it wasn't. :D

I don't see most of the concern in this thread being armchair technophiles worried about whether they are going to getting a 14bit DSP vs a 12bit DSP, they're concerned about price. They're concerned that they won't be able to purchase a camera at all, any camera from RED. It doesn't take any industry experience to know what one's budget it. If your budget is $4k but the price $4.5k it doesn't really matter how good the camera is, you're wishing you could afford it and it wasn't "worth it".

I'm sure the latest jet upgrade for Jim was "worth it" and I'm sure it was a fair price. Doesn't mean I could afford it though. I just want to be sure that people aren't coming down too hard on those "3k for $3k" crowd and thinking that they are accusing RED of being cheats. That's not the impression I'm getting from them. My impression is simply that they want to make their voices heard that a fair price that's outside their budget would mean they can no longer afford it. Price/Performance ratios are great. But somewhere along that price/performance ratio we all have have a point where we have to step away and say "fair but not worth it." I would even say for me the F23 is "fair but not worth it", there's clearly still a thriving F23 market for those who feel differently.

But as you said at this point it's far too early to speculate and there is no reason to necessarily even believe RED will raise prices.
 
Nah, it wan't a whiny attitude that created RED, it was a progressive attitude. I was there from before Day 1 with RED, wrote all the early magazine articles about RED, etc. Believe me, I have a very good handle on the formation and birth of RED - and it wasn't about a reaction to whiny attitudes, but rather it was the progressive and proactive attitudes possessed by Jim and a few others that was the impetus to form RED.

There are three types of people in this industry:
1) Those who make things happen
2) Those who conplain about what's happening
3) Those who wonder what just happened

Jim and RED Team are definitely Type 1 :)

This isn't an easy industry to get into or stay in. Everyone starts somewhere and sometime. No matter when you start it never seems to be easy. Nothing of any value comes easily - otherwise you wouldn't value it highly. My best advice to those who are budget challenged is to work real hard every single day while you're waiting to buy your camera, market your services daily (close deals), borrow some funds if necessary, and ultimately you'll be able to afford the camera you want. When you get it, hit the road running and put it to work for you. Next thing you know your business will grow and you'll be buying a 2nd and 3rd camera and all the other tools of your trade you need. In fact though, owning a camera system isn't absolutely critical to success in this industry. If you're a indie person, yes, owning a camera really helps. But lots of people who are successful in this industry never own a camera - they rent everything, or use what a project provides.

All us veterans have been down that startup phase road - we empathize with you, and most of us here are happy to be a resource for newcomers.

But, the bottom line premise here is still the same - there has been no price increase announced by RED, so nobody on this thread should be fretting about an increase. Lets deal with realities here - and not unfounded worries.
 
There are three types of people in this industry:
1) Those who make things happen
2) Those who conplain about what's happening
3) Those who wonder what just happened
Too true!

There's way too much whining going on. Some people won't be happy until their RED is delivered free of charge with a crate of Don Perignon and lifetime membership to Spearmint Rhino.
 
...and a box of Jim's finest Cuban cigars too! :sifone:
 
Look, we disagree. From my comments, I obviously don't feel the the original announcement is still in effect. If you read closely, you'd have understood that. As I said, any subsequent announcements would be judged in light of the original announcements. It's like a judge ruling against a motion in court and instructing the jury to disregard testimony or a lawyer's comments -- it's unrealistic to assume it'll will be done. Red made pronouncements in April 2008 that it thought were reasonable and realistic, as in "We believe we can give you X for Y dollars." Then about 8 months later -- when technology should be better and cheaper -- they said, in effect, "Well, maybe we can give you less than X, but now it'll cost you 1.25Y dollars." Now, a year and a half after the original announcement, Jim's comments have convinced me that the original vision has been further eroded, and that the price, for diminished specs (relative to the original specs) will be higher still. If these increases were spread over the whole product line and Red humbly acknowledged that they arrogantly goofed, then fine. It's the "We can announce anything we want, but when we tell you to forget we ever said it, please do so" attitude that I have trouble with.

Well, now that this thread has it's own playground....

You are disappointed you didn't get what Jim had originally anticipated building. We get that.

Jim has ALWAYS been up front that the RED landscape was subject to change. Did YOU get that?

Bcause feeling that you've "been screwed" on a product that was only discussed, never even built, and that you never paid any money for, all the while the person discussing the product has TOLD YOU that the specs are subject to change, seems a bit much to me.

Buying a used car from a dealership that knows the transmisison is about to die: screwed.

Not getting something you anticipated because you didn't believe the disclaimer and then bitching about it here: whiny.


Now it may seem like a small thing to you... but rack up all the people who apparently don't comprehend the Red philosphy of development, feedback, disclosure, etc... who come on here and whine BEFORE THE PRICING AND SPECS HAVE EVER BEEN ANNOUNCED, and the big guy sooner or later gets tired if it and decides to start clamming up.

So think before you start throwing terms around.

-sc

PS- Great thread title.
 
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Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim
 
How about issuing a "license to whine" with every RED camera ordered? Then those who have the actual item in their clammy hands can gripe, and the rest can respectfully keep the whimpering to themselves.
 
Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Me likes the first option. Definitely.
 
As Abraham Lincoln almost said

You can make some of the people happy all the time, all of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time.

My happiness explained as a potential new Red customer.

A. I'm very happy some of the time.

B. When I'm filming with a camera (whichever make) I'm happy almost all of the time (except the time one chewed my tape!)

C. If I buy a RED I hope to be extremely impressed and then I shall refer back to point B whilst removing the tape element from the equation. Hoorraa!

RED, you chaps have done a marvelous job on bringing the next phase to market. Great concept, amazing leaps in technology and an ingenious marketing strategy to boot in this digital age. Whatever the final price / delivery date and wheather or not I can afford it, I have no doubt RED will lead and the others will have no choice but to follow.

I look forward to the announcment.

Woops! Didn't see Jim's last post about not really having a marketing strategy. Still, works a treat though.
 
How about issuing a "license to whine" with every RED camera ordered?

Are there any actual owners who partake in the whining? I get the impression it is only Scarlet wannabes who hoped for a $999 camera with 4000 frames a second, at least 17 stops of range and a minimum of 999k pixels....
 
Are there any actual owners who partake in the whining? I get the impression it is only Scarlet wannabes who hoped for a $999 camera with 4000 frames a second, at least 17 stops of range and a minimum of 999k pixels....

You mean that's NOT what we're getting!??!!?!?! :ohmy:
 
Steven... there is a point of truth to your last comment. As soon as someone says we are "screwing them", I have to think that something is very wrong with our approach. "Screwing" anyone is the furthest thing away from our intent. If too many people don't like the program, we definitely need to re-think the presentation. Clam up came to mind.

There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

Well Jim, for what it's worth, I'm not a Red customer yet... I'm hoping I may be able to change that with Scarlet/Fixed. (I'm not in the biz, so I'd need to cough up the cash out of sheer video hobbyist geekdom).

Nonethless, I am a huge proponent of your business philosphy, and applaud it. I sincerely hope that those of us who are trying to "get it" provide enough sense of group appreciation (and dare I say accomplishment?), that it outweighs the noise from the whiny forum jockeys*.

When asked once if you ever tired of hearing how much you rock, you said: "No.". So:

Rock on sir!

-sc

* So called because most of the whiners wouldn't dare make some of the rude assertions in person they make here.
 
There was no marketing plan when we started this company. It evolved. Posting and listening just happened. It seemed to make sense and seemed to work. But as "everything changes"... so can our presentation. Just need to know whether to talk out loud during the process with people realizing the need to change and adapt as things move along, or do it the old fashion way. You all get to choose.

Jim

While I don't think RED is screwing anyone, if you clammed up you wouldn't get pricing feedback either. I've always thought one of the huge advantages of the RED approach is that you can take a litmus test of interest and excitement instantaneously.

"Hey if we released a $3k camera with these features how excited would you guys be? How about at $5k? Is everyone still excited?" If half of scarlet user suddenly lost interest and page views plunged you would have a pretty good indication that a certain market segment wasn't being served anymore. :D

I certainly don't envy the task of trying to find the best balance. A balance that will undoubtedly get easier as technology progresses.
 
honestly if you can't afford more than 3k for a camera this good then maybe you aren't ready for it yet. Look at what is out on the market now, do you know how to use it? can you get the best image from it? Cause if you are a struggling student I don't think this is the best investment, maybe you should just get a lower end camera and practice your craft instead of going on to internet forums and complaining about a price of a camera that doesn't even exist on the market yet.
 
I'm a Scarlet wannabe. I surely hope for a camera around the guestimated price with the sort of the key features that were mentioned. Nothing else. I'm not whining about anything. All I was saying, was that if it was more expensive I would have to wait longer and or maybe (even worse) buy something else. Both would be sad for me of course. I'm not jumping around here saying "MAKE IT DIFFERENT OR I QUIT". I'm not a child. I just say that I dream of owning a Red camera some day and that the probability of the realisation of that dream is depending on such things as e.g. the price.
Some people might sympathize, others might point and laugh thinking "haha, your problem"

I wasn't accusing anybody, I was not making any assumptions about what it might cost, I wasn't whining, I wasn't pointing fingers.

If I didn't think RED was capable of making great products (and trying their best to do so) I wouldn't be here. The beginning of the discussion was merely a reaction to the first "half official" statement of Jim that the price of the Fixed Scarlet might have changed.

I agree that "screwed" is not a term that applies here :) I never used it.
 
Subject to change people. I don't get the expectation. Jim actually communicates to us. You won't find this in other places. Go to Apple and see if Steve Jobs will actually comment on what you think is fair pricing or practices. You will get a representative who probably lives down the street from you. Although this is apples and oranges it works as an example.

I hate to add to this thread but it seems so simple: Things are subject to change, expect it and you won't be DISAPPOINTED.

I would say yes, there is a give and take with the way RED works. There should be a forum for bitching and speculating. If you don't like it, start your own camera company.
 
My guess is that those who are worried most about a price increase are in the group who were only interested in the fixed lens Scarlet. That's the group who had the least amount to put into a camera system anyway and might be forced to jump ship to a DSLR for their needs/wants. I don't think losing out on the lowest end of their market is going to hurt Red that much.

Now if Red alienated the entire s35 scarlet crowd then yeah, they'd have a problem but I think that tier can better absorb a price hike.

If Red can't deliver on their 3k for $3k prediction then oh well, it's a little bit of a black eye since they were the ones who put that out there to begin with but the $3k market never was going to keep Red in business anyway. They're a digital cinema company and somehow I don't see $3,000 bucks and high end digital cinema going hand in hand.
 
Subject to change people. I don't get the expectation. Jim actually communicates to us. You won't find this in other places. Go to Apple and see if Steve Jobs will actually comment on what you think is fair pricing or practices. You will get a representative who probably lives down the street from you. Although this is apples and oranges it works as an example.

I hate to add to this thread but it seems so simple: Things are subject to change, expect it and you won't be DISAPPOINTED.

I would say yes, there is a give and take with the way RED works. There should be a forum for bitching and speculating. If you don't like it, start your own camera company.

Could not have said it better myself. I have never known another company in my life that is as open and willing to listen to customers as Red is. Kudos, Jim and the whole Red team for being so ahead of the pack.

Regardless of the price, I can't wait to see what they have done. Whether or not I can afford to buy one of my own ( most likely not since I am poor ) is a whole other story and does nothing to deter my anticipation to see whats coming.
 
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