Combat/Reality Frame Rate

[Scott M]

As my goal of dedicated historical filming overseas on the RED moves along slowly (getting more traction lately), I wanted to find out some opinions on what the frame rate should be if I get the opportunity.

I inherently want to shoot at 24 for the look/feel but perhaps 30 is more appropriate? What would you hope the footage would be returning at for modern/historical use?

Here is the link to my presentation piece which I shot (Via RED at 24fps) earlier this year in Afghanistan: http://vimeo.com/1021632

 

[Nick Gardner]

Hi there,

24 (23.98) FPS will be the best archival medium, if for only the reason that it transfers well to 30 (TV- with 3-2 pull down) and International (Pal -25fps), and to 35mm film if need be. Plus it's what movies is ;-)

Really enjoyed your footage,

Nick Gardner

 

[Harmonica]

What a beautiful piece and worthy endeavor. Best of luck to you!

I would agree with you on choosing 24 for the look/feel, plus you can get more out of over-cranked footage. (120/24=5, whereas 120/30=4)

PS- Thanks for your service!

 

[Shawn Booth]

MrGlory -

As your title tells us, "combat/reality" frame rate, one would naturally suggest 29.97. Especially for "reality".

Combat photography switched to video and has been 29.97 for sometime, you know this, but that's based on what DoD purchased and what was available. With you using RED, the field changes ever so slightly.

Look at actual combat shot, and shot at 24 fps, what do YOU think? How is it? When I shot in the army, I was usually one of the only people watching my footage before it was "turned in" and whisked away. That was 94-95, perhaps it's different now...

 

[Nick Gardner]

Just restating what I said before, 23.98 gives you the most options. 30fps transfered to PAL looks like death. Call Getty and ask what they prefer - 23.98 PSF HDCAM. 23.98 is the most universal, and there fore in my opinion, the best archive choice. All of the footage shot by the armed forces up till betacam was shot on film at 24 fps. The fact that they switched to 30fps when video came along doesn't mean it was a good choice, it was the only choice available.

No disrespect meant to mister Booth, just my opinion.

Nick Gardner

 

[Shawn Booth]

None taken sir. I was just pointing out that that combat footage has been 29.97 for a while now. Perhaps he should stick with it for the DoD.

 

[Scott M]

With you using RED, the field changes ever so slightly.

Exactly, I think the opportunity to shoot at 24fps again immediately gives it a historical look/aesthetic, but can't decide whether it's most appropriate for modern history. Just looking for additional perspectives from those that would be consumers/viewers/editors of such history/footage from this point out.

Just restating what I said before, 23.98 gives you the most options. 30fps transfered to PAL looks like death. Call Getty and ask what they prefer - 23.98 PSF HDCAM. 23.98 is the most universal, and there fore in my opinion, the best archive choice.

Good point, this makes a good case for a reason to stay with 24 (23.98) beyond the aesthetic.

 

[Shawn Booth]

All of the footage shot by the armed forces up till betacam was shot on film at 24 fps.

Not all. There was a time when it was slower.

MrGlory -

If DoD is cool with it, stick with 23.98. I don't think it matters what the consumers/viewers think -

 

[Philip Lima]

I really like the look of 24p personally as a viewer and I have to say, after just finishing(editor) a doc that included 5 different formats, one of which was RED 24p, I think it is the most universal there is at this time.

As a side note, your footage you have posted on vimeo is downright spectacular. Your an amazing and brave cinematographer to take a Red into situations as you did. What you came away with is beautiful.

I noticed from your avatar picture, what are you using to hold the camera? Its hard to tell from such a small picture, but it doesn't like as big as a steadycam. Whatever it is, I'm impressed, your shots are excellent!

 

[Scott M]

If DoD is cool with it, stick with 23.98. I don't think it matters what the consumers/viewers think -

Interestingly enough, they're not even setup to take in HD right now through DVIDS or (it's new replacement). This will be new precedent of sorts, and that's what got me thinking about where to take it from here.

We eventually will go to HD. Right now we are still in SD so that is all we are working with.

Sent from my GoodLink synchronized handheld (www.good.com)


-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXX
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:41 PM Eastern Standard Time
To: XXXXXX
Cc: XXXXXX
Subject: RE: Cinema Quality Military Footage

If we can handle the format then I'd say we'd be happy to take it in. XXXX any insight?

 

[Nick Gardner]

Ah modern history....I do a lot of period pieces and the way something is shot really does impact the perception of the content. For example, I find that doing zooms on a show set in the 1500's just takes you right out of the story. I don't think people who watch footage from Vietnam, or D-day, or the Korean war think it is any less "Real". I do agree that people associate 30fps/60i whatever as "Live". I think that now that we can shoot 24fps again perceptions are going to change. A lot of reality shows are shooting 24fps now, and I have seen a bunch of combat footage from Iraq shot on HD at 24PFS. I think that in the next few years everyone will get used to seeing "video" footage at 24fps and it will be back to like before video tape, when it was lighting and shooting that told you whether you were watching a beer comercial or a commercial for The Carpet Ware House.

Also 30psf is a lot less hatefull than 60i, but it still has that look.

I am waiting for a plane so I have nothing better to do than sit here and type, but it is an interesting question about perception and the apropriate way to use the camera to tell the story.

Nick Gardner

 

[Shawn Booth]

I think it's settled then?

(It's true, there is a lot of military HD material out there, especially for the Marine Corp.)

 

[Scott M]

As a side note, your footage you have posted on vimeo is downright spectacular.

Thank you very much, my main goal in life right now is to be able to film this footage on a dedicated assignment (I've only been able to film on the side so far).

Here is my favorite still grab from the RED footage I was able to shoot

And 4K: link

I noticed from your avatar picture, what are you using to hold the camera? Its hard to tell from such a small picture, but it doesn't like as big as a steadycam. Whatever it is, I'm impressed, your shots are excellent!

My avatar photo was actually from my first deployment in 2003 where I used the Canon XL1, that's just an M16 hanging around my neck.

 

[Scott M]

(It's true, there is a lot of military HD material out there, especially for the Marine Corp.)

Yes, the Marines hopped on the HD bandwagon very quickly, and when I was in Afghanistan the first time they were my inspiration and motivation to continue trying to shoot at a more cinematic yet historical style for the Army. When I ended up home I was lucky enough to be picked to shoot on the National Guard's theater campaign (on Panavised F900's) which was co-developed with the company that produced those ads I watched in Afghanistan (American Rogue). I have since brought the National Guard's internal production suite up to HD first on Varicams and then P2 cameras along with Final Cut (up from Canons and Avid). But when it comes to the RED, that bridge is fully there now for that intrinsic filmic quality to return, not on a system sweeping scale but at least a small team level, and that's my goal.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mr Glory,

We've talked a few times. Good to see you having fun with RED!

I've been shooting with RED for over 10 months now, in a wide variety of productions: commercials, television programs, features, and high-end business projects. I don't specifically shoot DoD projects, but as you know I'm a veteran.

We're in the middle of producing several TV programs and features right now, using several REDs and also some other cameras. The subject matters are natural history and adventure travel. This involves shooting everything from aesthetic beauty sequences, to high action sequences - a mix that is similar to what you need to shoot in your DoD work.

Our frame rate approach? We always analyze each sequence to be shot, then brainstorm the camera, lens, resolution, frame rate, and shutter speed that will best achieve the "look" of the footage that will best illustrate the portion of the story we will be wanting to tell with that particular sequence. For low-motion beauty shot sequences, to be cut into mood montages and aesthetically softer sequences, we usually use RED in 4k/23.98/48th second shutter. For higher action sequences to be shot in 4k, we usually use 4k/29.97/96th second shutter because the 6 frame slow down when footage is played in a 23.98 timeline, coupled with the faster shutter speed smoothes out the footage and softens judder. For very fast action sequences, where glass smooth slo-mos are needed, we shoot RED at 3k/59.94/192 second shutter.

IMO being stuck in a "24 fps for everything because it is traditional" mind set is anachronistic and artistically limiting. 24 fps is fine for the footage sequences where it is the best choice for telling that particular portion of the story. I'm all for cinematic footage, and I shoot it regularly - but I don't hesitate to use higher or lower frame rates when they are the best choice.

The X factor is the Producer's Guidelines that each television network requires producers/packagers to conform to. You also have technical delivery requirements for your DoD projects.

Each year I judge various national Emmy Awards competitions (PrimeTime, Sports, Daytime, etc.). One key thing I look for while judging is the choices of frame rates and shutter speeds. "24fps no matter what subject matter I'm shooting" mentalities don't impress me in the programs I judge. Matching various frame rates and shutter speeds to best tell each portion of a story does.

Hope this input is beneficial to you...

From one veteran to another on the 4th of July, I hope you have a great Independence Day.

 

[Scott M]

Hey Steve,

A happy Independence day to you as well.

Thanks for the in-depth response as usual! I will definitely mix up the shutter speed and per shot frame rate, I was curious as to the base/timeline project rate of 23.98 vs. 29.97. Would you agree that without planning the shot and when capturing on the fly in this scenario, shooting 23.98 "over" 23.98 base/timeline is the most appropriate default if no particular standard was requested?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Just depends on what your distribution target is. 30 fps is very US-centric, for 480/30P, 480/60i, 720/60P, 1080/60i TV broadcast, DVD release.

It's less friendly for conversion to PAL and European HDTV, which is all 25 fps / 50P / 50i, compared to 24 fps photography.

Even 60i converts to 50i PAL better than 30P does because you have twice as many motion samples to play with.

 

[Scott M]

Just depends on what your distribution target is.

Thank you for the reply, that's actually why I was looking for input, as there isn't a specific "target" per se. If I am able to bring this to fruition, it will be because no one else is actively doing so on behalf of the military at this level, not because of a specific request. It's purely for historical use as needed/wanted for any reason. Hence I was looking for thoughts on what would be the best default for the widest possible use now and into the future. It would seem from the input so far that 23.98 is the most versatile/adaptable base frame rate. It was my original plan to film at that rate already, but I didn't want to overlook a reason to default to something else more appropriate.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hey Steve,

A happy Independence day to you as well.

Thanks for the in-depth response as usual! I will definitely mix up the shutter speed and per shot frame rate, I was curious as to the base/timeline project rate of 23.98 vs. 29.97. Would you agree that without planning the shot and when capturing on the fly in this scenario, shooting 23.98 "over" 23.98 base/timeline is the most appropriate default if no particular standard was requested?

If you're using the RED Drive, and you set up a project rate of 4k/23.98 (16:9 or 2:1, RC28) and you need a higher frame rate for faster motion shots, you can easily use Varispeed to up the frame rate to 30 fps. If your project was set up as 3k/23.98 (16:9) and you needed a higher frame rate, you can use Varispeed to go up to 50 fps. Remember, once the drive is set to a project frame rate, then that is the frame rate that must be used with the drive, except for the usage of Varispeed, which allows you to use variable frame rates over the project frame rate. The caution is that in Varispeed mode audio is disabled, so if you need audio in your faster frame rate shots, then you'll need to set up a higher project frame rate. The obvious workaround if you need audio on all shots is to alternately shoot to the RED Drive and RED CF cards, with each set up for different Project Frame rates, and quickly re-setup the camera to the appropriate project frame rates between drive and card usage.

As Dave Mullen noted, 30fps is U.S.-centric, but since you're shooting for the U.S. Department of Defense, for their applications, then I'd say it is evident that a U.S.-centric path of 30fps makes the most sense. That's why I noted in my original post: "You also have technical delivery requirements for your DoD projects." Since your projects are for a U.S entity, and if they are televised, it would most likely be on a 30p-centric network, I also included this in my original post: "The X factor is the Producer's Guidelines that each television network requires producers/packagers to conform to."

Hope this helps...

 

[Steve Gibby]

It would seem from the input so far that 23.98 is the most versatile/adaptable base frame rate. It was my original plan to film at that rate already, but I didn't want to overlook a reason to default to something else more appropriate.

23.98 does not handle fast motion subjects well. Your military shooting frequently involves fast motion objects: jets, helicopters, etc. My usual sports and adventure travel productions also involve fast motion objects. Me and my crews simply do not use 23.98 for fast motion objects, but almost always shoot them at frame rates of 30fps and upward from there to smooth out the motion and enable smooth slo-mos. That said, as noted in my original post, we shoot slower motion and stationary scenes a 23.98.

A base frame rate of 23.98 is fine, but in shooting the kind of stuff you shoot, which also involves some fast motion objects, IMO there is a definite need for faster frame rates - thus 23.98 project rate, with Varispeed frame rate increases as I described in my last post should be the ticket.