Combat/Reality Frame Rate

[Nick Gardner]

23.98 does not handle fast motion subjects well

Yes it looked terrible in black hawk down, the road warrior, saving private ryan, the thin red line, full metal jacket, platoon, apocalypse now, the terminator, or any action movie for that matter:whistling:

Oh yeah I forgot, the 24fps motion blur totally ruined Children of Men for me.

But seriously, I think we are talking about 2 different things. 1 the way the image impacts you emotionally, and 2 are you just collecting data and you want the crispest images you can get.



Nick "Defender of 24p" Gardner

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, if you're not concerned about matching a film look to the motion, then shooting at super high rates like 60 fps or 72 fps will give you the smoothest motion while allowing conversion to slower frame rate delivery formats. But then you get into limits in resolution with the RED, so you may be sacrificing 4K resolution just to achieve more motion samples per second.

As for 30 fps versus 24 fps, 30 fps looks smoother... but I'm not sure the improvement is radical enough to justify if there is any chance of having to release this for 50i European television.

 

[Scott M]

Well, if you're not concerned about matching a film look to the motion, then shooting at super high rates like 60 fps or 72 fps will give you the smoothest motion while allowing conversion to slower frame rate delivery formats. But then you get into limits in resolution with the RED, so you may be sacrificing 4K resolution just to achieve more motion samples per second.

It would be a larger scale version of what I pieced together in the link in my first post. Occasional overcrank, but mainly capturing the daily operations at the "film" resolution for posterity (not necessarily all action and fast moving vehicles). Right now the still Combat Camera shooters have nice DSLR's with greater and greater resolution, but the standard for motion is still SD. While HD will be an improvement as it filters in, they will still be "run-n-gun" setups to cover the general use scheme. My pitch is to travel around with a RED for most of the shots and a Scarlett when available for tighter spaces, more maneuverability as needed, capturing high quality "slice-of-[military]-life" footage.

As for 30 fps versus 24 fps, 30 fps looks smoother... but I'm not sure the improvement is radical enough to justify if there is any chance of having to release this for 50i European television.

I think this makes the most sense.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Yes it looked terrible in black hawk down, the road warrior, saving private ryan, the thin red line, full metal jacket, platoon, apocalypse now, the terminator, or any action movie for that matter:whistling:

Oh yeah I forgot, the 24fps motion blur totally ruined Children of Men for me.

But seriously, I think we are talking about 2 different things. 1 the way the image impacts you emotionally, and 2 are you just collecting data and you want the crispest images you can get.



Nick "Defender of 24p" Gardner

Sure, if your taste includes tons of judder and motion blur for a definition of "looks good". :biggrin:

24fps is a traditional cinematic frame rate used for cinematic themed productions. All of your examples are features destined for the big screen. If you look at the top of this forum, it it titled: "EFP/ENG and RED", to differentiate it from the other forums on RED User. I'm the one who originally suggested this forum to Jared, and subsequently wrote the EFP FAQ you'll find at the top of the forum page. If you read that FAQ you'll discover the broad array of EFP genres that RED One can be and is used in - most of which have very little in common with cinema or features - thus they have other aesthetic and technical requirements.

Mr. Glory's initial post asked for input about "Combat/reality frame rate" - something quite different from the movies you quoted.

Whenever you see a smooth slow motion sequence in cinematic productions it is achieved using higher frame rate. You don't get smooth action sequences from 24fps, and thus you certainly don't get smooth slo-mos from 24fps.

The combining of various frame rates, each suited to the content and motion of the shot sequences, delivers a "look and feel" that far surpasses a "24fps for everything approach". A combination FPS and shutter speed approach like I previously outlined accomplishes both goals 1 and 2 you listed above. Even a cinematic feature frequently has scenes where you need to/want to bring the audience into immediacy and "the now". That's where variable frame rates are a valuable tool.

This EFP/ENG and RED forum isn't the best place to stake a "24p is best" claim. There are other forums on RED User where that would be a more valid position.

Steve "I use the appropriate frame rate and shutter speed for each shot to more effectively tell the story" Gibby

 

[Nick Gardner]

Alright Gibby, I'm going to give this up because I think you are missing my point. I am not advocating a 24fps for everything approach. I am advocating a 24fps base. Higher frame rates for slow mo, slower for time lapse.

Having watched Mr Glory's footage, and reading

It would be a larger scale version of what I pieced together in the link in my first post. Occasional overcrank, but mainly capturing the daily operations at the "film" resolution for posterity (not necessarily all action and fast moving vehicles)

, my impression was that he is looking at documenting the life of men in service with a feel that is something akin to WWII, greatest generation kind of stuff, and looking at what is the best frame rate for archive material.

I am not sure why you feel the need to try to educate me in ENG/EFP, as it has no relevance at all to the above questions.

But at any rate, good luck Mr. Glory, really liked your stuff.

Nick

 

[Steve Gibby]

I am not advocating a 24fps for everything approach. I am advocating a 24fps base. Higher frame rates for slow mo, slower for time lapse.

We mostly agree here, with the exception that I feel a 29.97 base frame rate is a better choice for certain genres and types of productions. 23.98 is fine for many others, with the added overcrank and undercrank abilities of Varispeed added in.

Having watched Mr Glory's footage, and reading , my impression was that he is looking at documenting the life of men in service with a feel that is something akin to WWII, greatest generation kind of stuff, and looking at what is the best frame rate for archive material.

I watched his production also. It's good. There were sequences in it that called for higher frame rates: juddered helicopter flying in front of mountains, jets taking off, etc. If his goal is strictly an archival look, then perhaps 24fps throughout is OK. But if he wants to enhance the archival passages with smooth action and slo-mos, then higher frame rates are necessary.

I am not sure why you feel the need to try to educate me in ENG/EFP, as it has no relevance at all to the above questions.

Because this is an EFP/ENG forum, the predominant frame rate for EFP/ENG is not 24fps, and you seemed to not grasp those two facts. What Mr. Glory is shooting is electronic field production (EFP), plain and simple. He's using electronic cameras and shooting in a camera style that is EFP, regardless of the 24p frame rate. He's shooting EFP and this is an EFP forum - I'd call that very relevant.

-------------------

I'm not on one side or the other of the 24p "controversy". I shoot tons of 24p and also tons of other frame rates - again, the frame rate and shutter speed that best tells the story, or portion thereof. NTSC EFP, the genre Mr. Glory is shooting, is generally shot at 30p, 29.97, 59.94, or 60p. If he's after a purely archival look, 23.98 should be fine - with the faster motion sequences shot at higher frame rates.

 

[Rob Gardner]

.....

 

[Rob Gardner]

Sure is an interesting debate either way.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Sent you a PM Mr. Glory

Nick

 

[Jerry Nichols]

Mr.Glory,
This may be a bit dated, but a heartfelt God Bless You and to those who serve. Awesome footage!
Jerry

 

[M Hsu]

look. everyone knows that 15fps on youtube is the new reality frame rate. Also if possible, use a camera phone. Cloverfield is the new saving private ryan.

 

[Rob Gardner]

Congrats Mr. Glory for the full page story in Videographer this month. The writer doesn't quite get the camera, but neither did Wired... Nice picture of Scott with the Red hand-held with what looks like an Ang 25-250 (or a surface-to-air missile launcher). Looks pretty light-weight.

Anyway, way to go Scott.
Rob Gardner

 

[Scott M]

Congrats Mr. Glory for the full page story in Videographer this month. The writer doesn't quite get the camera, but neither did Wired... Nice picture of Scott with the Red hand-held with what looks like an Ang 25-250 (or a surface-to-air missile launcher). Looks pretty light-weight.

Anyway, way to go Scott.
Rob Gardner

Ha, thanks.

Got back to back covers for this story!

HD Article - [For my own perspective].

The interesting aspect to this quest of mine, is that I've received more interest via the Vimeo page than anything. When I returned home, I submitted the information and footage links up the chain of every military video/multimedia contact/email I could find, and it resulted in absolutely no follow up. So I went to the Combat Camera association themselves and they were interested and have asked me to give a presentation in Vegas later this year at their conference. During the interviews for the articles, there was a brief bit of interest on the military side (about the time I posted this question on frame rate), it apparently ceased as soon as the interviewing was done (hence in the government video/videography magazines, they got the info a little wonky, and my goal is not to replace all of combat camera with RED ONE's just a small team--however the Scarlet would be perfect... I would love to be able to bring more info to the Combat Camera Conference *hint* *hint* :wink: ).

Then, in the last week through the Vimeo page I have received 3 private messages from folks in government consulting groups and/or the exact people in the military I had hoped would see it, purely by chance (not out of my emails/phone calls sent up the chain through the "proper channels"). So there is definitely some interest on the "fringes" of the system.

I had just about given up actually. I thought this would be a no-brainer now that the technology and equipment was in place and I had essentially proven it would "work", albeit with a last minute setup that wasn't exactly the most effective (wobbly tripod, huge lens, etc.). It would seem that those pixelated reports being transmitted back via news broadcast or at best the SD video or youtube videos are all that people expect now for our military history. It boggles my mind. Some have asked "why not go back as a civilian journalist?" And my answer is that at that point it becomes too much "my story", and more about me and the equipment at that point than if I were able to film as a Soldier.

Anyway, thanks for the support guys, who knows what's really going on behind the scenes somewhere where the decisions are actually made. This is something I believe in, and hopefully it will come to fruition sooner rather than later, even if I don't get to be a part of it.

Edit>> Interesting, I just came across the Videography version (apparently same network of magazines so they share stories), it's slightly different than the GV version

 

[Ronald Reddick]

MrGlory
I work and shot in Kabul and manage the Techncial Operaitons for ATN network here in Afghanistan. If you ever need local support, housing, etc and want to shot for us send me a PM. We shot local on Sony XDCAM 700's and I have my own R1 I use for my own work.

Best of luck and stay safe.
Ron

 

[Scott M]

MrGlory
I work and shot in Kabul and manage the Techncial Operaitons for ATN network here in Afghanistan. If you ever need local support, housing, etc and want to shot for us send me a PM. We shot local on Sony XDCAM 700's and I have my own R1 I use for my own work.

Best of luck and stay safe.
Ron

Ron, thanks, I appreciate it. I'm still hoping that the military will see the potential and want to pursue some dedicated filming, but as of now they (at the decision making level) don't seem to be jumping on board the idea. Should it come to fruition I will check in with you.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Shoot 24 FPS, it looks great.

Stephen

 

[Ronald Reddick]

If I can Help

If I can Help

Dude
No problem, can understand wanting to shoot with the troops, I have made some good contacts here, will reach out to some people I know in ISAF, DEA, and US Army and see if I can get you an in.



The civilian side is very interesting also, I am working on documenting what it is like to do business here, with the rebuilding, bombs, and the locals trying to get by. The dichotomy you see here is amazing, and driving around in a normal Prado instead of a HumVee or Striker gives you a different fell. It is amazing the crowds I get when I setup to shoot, people come over and talk, bring you tea, all and all very nice, and then the moments of sheer terror. My big dilemma is pulling the story line together to really tell the story well and let people see that there is more than the war here, but also it is never far away, even in Kabul or Mazar.



I will stay in touch and let you know if I can point you to some good contacts

Ron

 

[Scott M]

My big dilemma is pulling the story line together to really tell the story well and let people see that there is more than the war here, but also it is never far away, even in Kabul or Mazar.

Exactly! This has been my goal for a while (albeit from the ServiceMembers perspective) starting back in 2003 when I was able to do a lot more filming over the course of 10 months vs. 4 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDuvTmPXoE I had more opportunity to film the Afghan locals and the environment then as well.

Sure, people like the wham-bam rock music videos with action, but that's the fringe of the situation, there needs to be some balance for History's sake, and I think the RED makes that more viable than ever when it comes to quality motion footage.

I will stay in touch and let you know if I can point you to some good contacts

Ron

Please do! And good luck with your project as well.

Shoot 24 FPS, it looks great.

Thanks, that's what I'm going to stick with.

 

[Alexander Christ]

Hi,

Shoot 24 FPS, it looks great.

Stephen

24 or 23.976?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Mr. Glory, let me just say, seeing that photo of you holding the Red and a cine zoom on it while also having a machine gun strapped to you, man, that is beyond commendable. Having shot a lot of Red handheld, it is challenging. And I'm shooting with still lenses most of the time. You look like you're handling that rig like it's a plastic toy. So, just wanted to say I appreciate what you are doing and I hope the military does as well, as the 24fps and high resolution are going to be something very special for the archives.

Be safe and keep on shooting!