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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Color shifts with ND

Christoffer Glans

Christoffer Glans

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Been testing my firecrest NDs and I've noticed some color shift.

No ND


ND 0.6


How is the Komodo generally behaving compared to older sensors like the Dragon 6K (which I used these for with less shifts)? Is it the NDs that doesn't work with Komodo or what is going on?

I've also noticed that Komodo tends to shift towards green tint a lot, especially when underexposing.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I've also noticed that Komodo tends to shift towards green tint a lot, especially when underexposing.
Click to expand...

Strange. There's a post on the Komodo Users Facebook group saying the opposite, that Komodo is very magenta compared to other RED cameras.
 
Todd Gilpin said:
I got mine this week and today I have been doing some more controlled testing and noticing the same thing. The more it is underexposed the more it shifts green. And it seems to do it whether I'm underexposed with ND or with aperture.
Click to expand...

Not sure why this is happening. Maybe there should be some tweaks to the firmware or something, a tint adjustment might neutralize it, but hard to know if Red won't chime in on it all.

Kyle Wright said:
Strange. There's a post on the Komodo Users Facebook group saying the opposite, that Komodo is very magenta compared to other RED cameras.
Click to expand...

Most won't white balance two cameras before comparing. Too many do the "straight out of the camera" kind of comparisons with no proper preparation that you would normally do when trying to match two cameras. It's a bit frustrating that so many do "tests" but so many don't even seem to know the basic technical knowledge of cinematography. So much bad info out there.
 
EVERY PIECE OF GLASS YA STICK IN FRONT OF A CAMERA IS GONNA SHIFT COLOR.

Lens, filter, diffusion, pola. All of it. Filters suck. ND filters suck sooooooo baaaaaad. They blow. Polas are the woooooorst! I know you don't want my advice but here it is: Polas are for losers. Don't ever use them again. Want to shoot at a 1.3 outside in the blazing desert sun? Of course ya don't. Cause that's lame! Ya want yer spot to look like every other lame commercial on the tube? Of course ya don't. That's why ya shoot 50D outside.

But seriously ND filters suck. Even the good ones (and Firecrest are better than most) will shift color. And not plus or minus green kinda color shift. No. That's not how filters work. Filters work by filtering out wavelengths of light. Filters aren't a computer. They don't subtract in a binary manner. They literally SUCK the LIFE out of your image. There is no LINEAR response therefore you CANNOT put back in what you SUCKED out.

If yer ever curious as to HOW FING BAD filters are for color fidelity in your images make sure you shoot a color chart without the filter and then with the filter. Also make sure you jack up that saturation in Post.
 
Simple test is to do the same exposure with shutter, Nd and iris and then see what sticks out.
 
Adrian Jebef said:
EVERY PIECE OF GLASS YA STICK IN FRONT OF A CAMERA IS GONNA SHIFT COLOR.

Lens, filter, diffusion, pola. All of it. Filters suck. ND filters suck sooooooo baaaaaad. They blow. Polas are the woooooorst! I know you don't want my advice but here it is: Polas are for losers. Don't ever use them again. Want to shoot at a 1.3 outside in the blazing desert sun? Of course ya don't. Cause that's lame! Ya want yer spot to look like every other lame commercial on the tube? Of course ya don't. That's why ya shoot 50D outside.

But seriously ND filters suck. Even the good ones (and Firecrest are better than most) will shift color. And not plus or minus green kinda color shift. No. That's not how filters work. Filters work by filtering out wavelengths of light. Filters aren't a computer. They don't subtract in a binary manner. They literally SUCK the LIFE out of your image. There is no LINEAR response therefore you CANNOT put back in what you SUCKED out.

If yer ever curious as to HOW FING BAD filters are for color fidelity in your images make sure you shoot a color chart without the filter and then with the filter. Also make sure you jack up that saturation in Post.
Click to expand...

:lol:

For sure, it's just that the difference is much more notable on Komodo than my 6K Dragon.

Personally, I usually just shoot with a faster shutter (as long as it's not super bright outside) then add post motion blur. Movements are rarely so extreme that it "artefacts" the post motion blur and you don't filter out anything. On top of that you get a perfect image for post stabilization and other things.
 
michael fetner said:
Then what is your suggestion for shooting f2 midday if you don't use ND's
Click to expand...

If you have normal motion you could just put the camera at ISO400 and the shutter until you have good exposure, then just apply RSMB motion blur in post.
This is often a solution for VFX shots, so why not non-VFX shots when you don't have NDs? I think that much of the extreme idea of always keeping the shutter at 180 comes from the days of 35mm film. I'd say that the only rule is to never go higher than a 225 shutter. 225 is good for slow-moving or almost static shots, more than that you will get that awful video feel that everyone hates. As long as you go up to 180 or 225, you will always have the option to add motion blur as long as the motion isn't so high that it creates artifacts.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
:For sure, it's just that the difference is much more notable on Komodo than my 6K Dragon.
Click to expand...



Interesting. Next time shoot both side-by-side. I normally notice color/tint shifts in off-whites and skintones. It would be intriguing to see both cams black balanced and then white balanced in a mixed lighting scenario to see where their RGB levels line up. (note to self for my next red prep lol)
 
Adrian, I use Firecrest and Rhodium NDs, on Dragon there is basically no shift at all in most densities (barely noticeable).

I never experienced such a distinct color cast like Christoffer posted so I think he may be onto something, and apparently he's not alone having this issue with Komodo...
 
I'm on location filming, but I'll double check to see if there's any shift on the Firecrests on Komodo. I didn't have any issues on the filters I tested a while back.

Based on your images with that backlight and iris change this isn't a controlled test, but I'll dive in a couple weeks.
 
Phil Holland said:
Based on your images with that backlight and iris change this isn't a controlled test, but I'll dive in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...

Nope, it's a shift I noticed while testing out stuff. Same as I've noticed that Komodo tends to go into super green tint when underexposing, while many others say it's leaning towards magenta, which I haven't noticed, so odd.
I will do more proper testings soon as well.
 
Phil Holland said:
I'm on location filming, but I'll double check to see if there's any shift on the Firecrests on Komodo. I didn't have any issues on the filters I tested a while back.

Based on your images with that backlight and iris change this isn't a controlled test, but I'll dive in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...

I haven't had any color shift issues using FIrecrests on my Epic-W (Helium) camera.

Firecrests aren't cheap, but it's worth spending the bux for quality glass!
 
Rakesh Malik said:
I haven't had any color shift issues using FIrecrests on my Epic-W (Helium) camera.

Firecrests aren't cheap, but it's worth spending the bux for quality glass!
Click to expand...

Exactly, but Christoffer and other users had some shifts on Komodo using Firecrest and other usually quite neutral filters...
 
Just a side note. For anybody interested. If you can go to near by rental and check different cameras with the same set of filters and the SAME camera with different set of filters of same brand and series you can find some times irregular color shifts. Its not a given, but once a while even a stick can shoot. Anyway once I've seen 2,1 IrND without any Ir in it (strong magenta cast on blacks in the sun) but with strong green tint as all Ir's have. It was very well known brand.
It's not always a camera.
 
Thanks Alex for chining in but we're not talking about IRNDs, we are talking about Firecrest
which (if checked at delivery for consistency) can be very neutral along the whole visible spectrum + IR
(of course without filters it's always better but these and Rhodium filters and many recent full spectrum NDs are good).

Also agree that many cameras are not consistent from one camera to another of the same model/brand (including Alexas)
but Christoffer and other users are talking about the not consistent results they experienced with Komodo using a filter which is consistent and neutral when used on other cameras.
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Thanks Alex for chining in but we're not talking about IRNDs, we are talking about Firecrest
which (if checked at delivery for consistency) can be very neutral along the whole visible spectrum + IR
(of course without filters it's always better but these and Rhodium filters and many recent full spectrum NDs are good).

Also agree that many cameras are not consistent from one camera to another of the same model/brand (including Alexas)
but Christoffer and other users are talking about the not consistent results they experienced with Komodo using a filter which is consistent and neutral when used on other cameras.
Click to expand...
Its a bit of contradiction here. That is one.
And second checking supposed to be done with several cameras and several filters. Not with the only set you have at home with the only camera you have available.
Noobody talking about a brand of filters. Sometimes you can find bad filters in a good brand in real life. It can can be different reasons for that, from buying online used and a lot of "contrafacture" to mistakes in manufacturing.
 
Alex, re-read his posts...the same filters which are consistent and neutral in his DSMC2 cameras are not behaving as expected on Komodo so it’s either an issue on the OLPF or hopefully something fixable with a firmware update by refining the color science tied to the Komodo sensor.
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Alex, re-read his posts...the same filters which are consistent and neutral in his DSMC2 cameras are not behaving as expected on Komodo so it’s either an issue on the OLPF or hopefully something fixable with a firmware update by refining the color science tied to the Komodo sensor.
Click to expand...
Did he checked two or MORE Komodo's?
Did he checked SIDE by side with his other cameras in the same CONDITIONS?
Did he checked with different filters of the SAME brand?
Did he checked with different filters of the DIFFERENT brand?
Only after you can speak about olpf's or firmware.
PS. I know, I am a bit difficult. But I am used to check "mechanical" part before digging inside of the camera.
 
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