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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cold shooting...

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Sounds to me that up to and including today, Jim has been figuring that 0 C is as cold as the camera needs to handle on its own. Probably based on his personal requirements- southern California doesn't get super cold often. I gather Red has always been a fairly personal project for him. This may be the first time the needs of many pro shooters have really diverged from what his own needs / wants seem to be. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.
 
CrewPix.com said:
Their seems to be a very two-tiered community here on the message board between indie/low-budget users and those with high-end needs, why not build a camera for each of us?
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I didn't realize that wanting to use a camera in common winter temps around town without tons of special warming gear or heated blimps or taking time indoors to warm it up so it will boot, constituted a "high-end" need. Especially since a $5000 HVX200 handles it all just fine.

I can understand the need for extra gear and precautions at severe temperature extremes (-25F and colder). But 0C doesn't cut it and if I have to put a RED in a heated blimp just to shoot my kids in the driveway with new bicycles on Christmas day, then... "Houston, we have a problem..."

Here's what my backyard looks like right now: 1:15PM 24F -4C ...Have a nice day.
backyard24f.jpg
 
babubu said:
very interesting website!
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Actually it was Jim Logan who pointed this site out. Seems like two solutions available currently for treating this problem.

Design a barney that fits the Red camera precisely and uses either the warm packs or electrical heating components. I've been siding on the electrical components, using low voltage battery source, but others have made good arguments for warmers. But until some other solution surfaces, I believe these are going to be the solutions and are typical in extreme weather conditions. The question right now is whether the Red Camera is underperforming in this category compared to other cameras both film and HD. If it is, then that's something to talk about and there's a need to discuss the issue and find a solution quickly, which I'm sure Red will do.

Steve
 
fightordie said:
What film cameras don't need to be heated? All pro 35mm cameras have heated barneys for cold weather and they are used when they shoot in the cold weather. And more specifically certain cameras have different gearing oil put in the cameras if they are to be taken to cold environments.
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I have used Arri 435's and 535's in the Canadian Rockies at -40C. No barneys, no covers, no special treatment other than nice warm batteries.

The biggest rental houses in Canada do not even have heated barneys for these cameras. The camera techs I asked would not switch them to a winterized oil and said it was unnecessary with modern cameras.

Winterizing cameras seems to be something that has gone out of favor with the current generation of gear. Panaflexes may be a different story.
 
Jannard said:
We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help. Warm it up. Rule of thumb, if you need something to keep you warm, so does RED. Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim
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Mr. Jannard I respectfully submit that Sony's 900/950 published Temp Spec has a built in safety margin. I have used those cameras in cold weather -10 / -15 without problems, and they have moving parts. And as far as my Chihuahua, well...

Method
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I didn't realize that wanting to use a camera in common winter temps around town without tons of special warming gear or heated blimps or taking time indoors to warm it up so it will boot, constituted a "high-end" need. Especially since a $5000 HVX200 handles it all just fine.

I can understand the need for extra gear and precautions at severe temperature extremes (-25F and colder). But 0C doesn't cut it and if I have to put a RED in a heated blimp just to shoot my kids in the driveway with new bicycles on Christmas day, then... "Houston, we have a problem..."=
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Seriously.. This problem really bothers me but what bothers me more is that Red is shrugging off the problem and offering band-aid solutions. I'll wait another 6 months for my camera if that's what it takes.. But I don't want to invest in this system just to have the camera develop a reputation amongst clients that it is unstable. I know the camera is amazing and has an amazing picture for the price point BUT clients won't give two shits if problems like this aren't fixed or addressed. I can hear it now, "I'm not renting that thing.. it doesn't work in the cold.. etc." If it can't be fixed then maybe Red can enlighten us on the problem and why their camera doesn't perform in temperatures where the Sonys and the Panasonics perform just fine.. I mean, we were told that this beast is bulletproof right? Do heroes needs scarves when they go out in the snow? GODDAMN NO!
 
CrewPix.com said:
I have used Arri 435's and 535's in the Canadian Rockies at -40C. No barneys, no covers, no special treatment other than nice warm batteries.

The biggest rental houses in Canada do not even have heated barneys for these cameras. The camera techs I asked would not switch them to a winterized oil and said it was unnecessary with modern cameras.

Winterizing cameras seems to be something that has gone out of favor with the current generation of gear. Panaflexes may be a different story.
Click to expand...

Well I have worked dozens of features and when cold comes around the heated barneys come out in the east coast US. Maybe my frame of reference are Panavisions. Maybe its not needed and its the ac trying to make sure that nothing is left to chance. Just because there has never been a problem in the cold doesn't mean its problem free in the cold. All you need is that one time. I mean if Jim were to get the thing to have more tolerance in the cold would that make it problem free and something you don't have to worry about anymore? Would you take the chance? Put the Barney on and you're as safe as you can reasonably get when big money is at stake.
 
fightordie said:
Well I have worked dozens of features and when cold comes around the heated barneys come out in the east coast US. Maybe my frame of reference are Panavisions. Maybe its not needed and its the ac trying to make sure that nothing is left to chance. Just because there has never been a problem in the cold doesn't mean its problem free in the cold. All you need is that one time. I mean if Jim were to get the thing to have more tolerance in the cold would that make it problem free and something you don't have to worry about anymore? Would you take the chance? Put the Barney on and you're as safe as you can reasonably get when big money is at stake.
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I've worked many many big budget arri and panavision features and commercials in the Canadian rockies (coldest ever went below -50c) never one time have I had to put a barney on the body for warmth.
 
rgdfilmsRED said:
Seriously.. This problem really bothers me but what bothers me more is that Red is shrugging off the problem and offering band-aid solutions.
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Well, I think RED is working on it now or at least looking into it. It's one of those things that a few of us kept asking about since, well, ..the beginning. I'm under the impression that RED completely under-estimates the demand for cold-weather usage.

I don't know if it's the time of year, winter in the northern hemisphere or, the massive following these couple cold-related threads have generated, reports of camera failures in temperatures approaching freezing, or what. But it looks like RED is finally acknowledging that people do need to shoot with their cameras in cold air.

I have confidence in RED. They are aware of the issue and I'm sure that a workable solution will be presented.

BTW: I wonder where Gibby is at. He shoots tons of EFP style projects all over the place. I'm sure he has an opinion on this.

rgdfilmsRED said:
I mean, we were told that this beast is bulletproof right? Do heroes needs scarves when they go out in the snow? GODDAMN NO!
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I've never even owned a scarf. :)
 
Jannard said:
For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE. :-)

Jim
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This is awesome a red propane stove!!! does it do 2k or 4k?, degrees that is, are the handles carbon fiber or steel? and can I order the accesorry cookout set now or do I have to wait for the stove to ship?
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I have confidence in RED. They are aware of the issue and I'm sure that a workable solution will be presented.
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Sounds good, although what has been said so far does not quite match. The temperature of -5C should not be a problem for booting/electronic devices.

It's in fact hard to think of any portable device which did not run just fine in cold although the specs are typically only to temperatures above 0C.
 
jbeale said:
Sounds to me that up to and including today, Jim has been figuring that 0 C is as cold as the camera needs to handle on its own. Probably based on his personal requirements- southern California doesn't get super cold often. I gather Red has always been a fairly personal project for him. This may be the first time the needs of many pro shooters have really diverged from what his own needs / wants seem to be. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.
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Exactly my thoughts.

Just wanted to add my concerns abount not being able to boot the camera below 0 C.

I really hope that this problem will be addressed. Hey, even Sony and Panasonic can do it!

Jim, come on, where's your perfectionism? :wink:
 
Cold Weather with #72 part 2

Cold Weather with #72 part 2

After some problems this past weekend, I chatted with Jarred about some precautions to shooting in cold weather. One suggestion was a cover for the camera, and some hot pockets to keep the camera warm.

Last night in approx -20C weather I spent about 3.5hrs outside with the camera enclosed in a porta brace camera cover, but opted not to use the hot pockets. The camera worked perfectly with no issues at all, and all the footage was exactly as I shot it.
 
The only problem with hot pockets and what not is heating a camera via external means is very inefficient. Optimally a small 12v heating block inside is the best solution.

I was thinking about some sort of attachment to go over the grill and blow in hot air myself. But am concerned it would interfere with the tripod.

Maybe what we need is a little meshed tray in the CF Card reader module. Pull it out put a few hand warmers in it and slide it back down into the camera. :)
 
hubickc said:
After some problems this past weekend, I chatted with Jarred about some precautions to shooting in cold weather. One suggestion was a cover for the camera, and some hot pockets to keep the camera warm.

Last night in approx -20C weather I spent about 3.5hrs outside with the camera enclosed in a porta brace camera cover, but opted not to use the hot pockets. The camera worked perfectly with no issues at all, and all the footage was exactly as I shot it.
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Thanks for the update. This is very encouraging news and appreciated.



Was the problem on the original footage ever solved?

Was it just because the camera was cold or was it a combination of things? IE: weather + firmware build, etc?

David
 
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