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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineflex vs Shotover

Here's the basic differences-

Cineflex Elite is Alexa M only. For Epic/Dragon you need the Cineflex Ultra, although there's a company making modifications to V-14's that will fit the Dragon. Cineflex has very limited payloads/ limited selection of lenses. Cineflex's in general are known to have issues with horizon which usually have to be steered to be corrected. This was supposed to be improved with the Ultra.

Shotover K1 is the larger system that requires the AF-200 brackets. Shotover F1 is the lighter weight one that can go on a single pole.
The K1 can handle just about any camera/lens payload except for film. The F1 is a bit more limited due to space, so it depends on the lens/camera but I thought I saw a 25-300 Fuji with a Dragon on one.

The reports from operators are that while the K1 initially had some issues, those have been ironed out. The F1 is reportedly very nice to operate, and it has the pistol grip controllers that the top aerial DP's prefer to use.

Later this year we should be seeing the release of Pictorvision's mini-eclipse, which I'm very excited about.
 
I just shot "a bunch" with both the Cineflex Ultra and Shotover F1. We actually had horizon issues on the F1, but we were able to moderately work it out after full tear down and essembly.

The F1 is certainly more flexible when it comes to balancing and lens options, though a proper modified Cineflex with a custom made lens weights are very fast to rig and swap glass. Takes a bit of time on lens swaps with F1 however. Both have their strengths and weaknesses in my mind.
 
I operate both systems, Cineflex Ultra is great yet only has 5 axis. The Shot over K1 and F1 have 6 axis.
K1 needs the much larger af200 Heli body mounts and counter weights making the helicopter quite heavy. Less payload less fuel at altitude, slightly different flying capabilities. Some pilots can feel the twist when you rotate the ball to quickly. I have flown with the rig myself as pilot. But I'm to inexperienced to feel the subtle difference. Nothing to be concerned about as an operator.
The k1 is technically built for 3d usage and able to house twin epics / sony's / alexa's etc with two giant 24-290 Angie,s hanging off them. Quite an amazing system to say the least when it's loaded up.
The F1 is far more easier when installing on a single pole. Lighter and easier to travel with as is the Cineflex.

From a shooting image stabilising perspective, both have there issues yet both have and edge over each other.
Shotover having 6 axis works really well when looking directly down. Your not depentant on the pilot to trying to centre you over a target. Which can be a complete pain in the arse if you want to get precise. With the Shotover systems You can pretty much PlayStation aim at anything with full horizon and vertical control. In short you'll nail the shot with little annoyance to the pilot. It's my choice of stabilised head for a majority of work.
Now...when and if your trying to shoot lenses of over 1000mm I believe the Cineflex is more stable. If your only shooting up to 300mm with normal cine zoom lenses, you cannot tell the difference. But at 1000 to 2000mm the Cineflex has a small edge. But again. Missing that 6 axis makes the shot over better over all.
Some operators say the control stick control is more direct on the Cineflex and Shotover is little loose. ... I think both are good to work with, The Shotovers jelly feel makes your mistakes less noticeable and you become less reliant on the pan tilt nobs.
Over all both will give you superb stabilisation. I wouldn't get flustered over a decision to use one or the other.


Hope that helps.
 
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how do you even become an operator? i guess there isnt a course and noone will let you to do it first time when the costs are big :)
 
Amen on pretty much anything that Mark said. I have a lot less experience than him obviously but have had the chance to use both and talk with our techs who built and service these. The advantage of the Shotover is basically that you can figure it out yourself, change lenses, change camera bodies etc. The Cineflex Ultra always had to go back to get anything changed, like a faulty camera body.

Look down on the Shotover is amazing like Mark said, this is where 6 Axis is handy. We did have horizon issues here and there but they were fixed after a while. Both systems mounted on the same helicopter, there really isn't much difference when shooting anything up to 400-500mm. I think here it's more about what you're more comfortable operating on the sticks. They both feel very different. I actually thought the overall panel of the Shotover is nicer but they Joystick of the Cineflex was superior. But thats personal preference.

Cineflex Ultra is the way to go when you're shooting extremely long lenses. That thing is rock solid. I really tested this when we put the Cineflex Ultra on a Polaris Razr on a Dune Buggy and drove offroad over sand. Locked onto a building in the distance and without even touching the joystick, driving in crazy curves and circles, the cineflex held the exact frame incredibly well and super stable. Couldn't see that you were even moving. At 2000mm, the Cineflex Ultra is actually more stable than a pair of sticks with a head firmly on the ground :)
 
Hi guys,

Alex from Cineflex here. You guys are doing a great job covering the bases, let me just add a few things:

1) All Cineflex systems are 5-axis systems, not 4-axis systems.
2) Cineflex Elites with the RED Dragon absolutely exist!

And lastly, we can't wait until NAB arrives to show you what we've been working on..... it may not be as cool to the general audience here as the Weapon (and I am distinctly lacking cool spy shots), but we're pretty psyched!

I (and my very closest work friends) will be at NAB, come by our booth and chat!
 
I have a lot of experience with the shotover. (And only as a DP directing another operator with the cineflex).

I have extensively used the P1. The original prototype. Along with the K1 and F1.

I have never had horizon issues. Occasionally, maybe once every 45 munutes, I reset horizon by tapping on the top button.

Look down is amazing, and the more I work with it, the more I appreciate it.

You can swap out joysticks if you prefer. I tried another operators F1 once. He was a long time cineflex operator and he just change out the joystick from personal preference.

For me. I am often landing in snow, remote places and doing a card swap or a filter change by myself. Or booting up the system after it has been parked outside overnight in a remote location for a dawn shot. It has always been reliable and made me feel comfortable.

(If you buy a Shotover, you get to attend a training course for a couple of days).

I am a little biased as my time with the cineflex is limited. But, I have never had any trouble with Shotover and it has always performed for me.
 
Ron here from Aerial Filmworks. We own 4x Cineflex systems including both Elite and Ultra systems. All points covered in this discussion. The 5-axis Ultra/RED is hands-down the most stable system ever built and we track fast-moving objects at 2,000mm while flying at 150mph. Both Elites and Ultras are integrated with RED Dragons. While less lens options, the changes are really fast. If you need straight-down, we use a simple Nadir Adapter so no mode changes are required. We are bias as well, but that is after researching all the available systems. Happy to demo the systems to anyone interested.

NAB will bring lots of new Cineflex developments ;)
 
I think there will be a lot of cool stuff happening in the full size gimbal arena at NAB with some new players and lower price points. As the cameras are getting smaller, The Weapon, Alexa Mini and the new "original" 4k camera the gimbals will too. We are really big fans of the GSS 5 axis gimbals as they are the fastest to swap out cameras or lenses and the only one that I know can push 12g 4k SDI through their fiber slip ring. The Shotover F1 is nice, especially the look down, but too limited in camera and glass choices, but that should change as the cameras get smaller and they can fit bigger glass inside their aerodynamically unfriendly gimbal. Looking forward to seeing the new Cineflex.
 
Agree in general with the pros and cons of V14, GSS and Shotover as well as looking forward to the mini eclipse.
In respect to long lens stability, the f1 was recently tested with the new canon 20x50 PL lens and it is in the ball park.

One thing missed from the discussion is that some systems have restricted gyros which makes use of the gimbal in non approved countries difficult or impossible.
Shipping cost varies considerably between systems. You can divide the cost of shipping systems into two cost categories twin pole and single pole.
Then divide single pole systems into two further categories, checked luggage and air cargo.
Worth remembering that Max cruise speed varies with smaller to larger gimbals and fiffers between single pole brackets. So if you have a lot of transit time it should be factored into the cost efficiency of using the larger gimbals. (remember helicopters are charged by the hour in the air, not by fuel used or miles flown)


Stabilised gimbals remain by far, the safest form of conducting aerial filming.
The sad events that occurred in Argentina this week did not involve the use of stabilised gimbals.
The most common denominator in aerial filming accidents is not mechanical failure or a genuine accident such as a bird strike, but by pilots "flying the shot" directed by the TV crew.


Mike Brennan
 
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Uros Zuraj said:
how do you even become an operator? i guess there isnt a course and noone will let you to do it first time when the costs are big :)
Click to expand...

Quite easy to learn how to operate. It does not need to be on a helicopter to learn. the back of a moving truck is fine.

It's just a joystick, pan and tilt nobs, focus, zoom and iris... all simple controls at your finger tips. Takes about 30 minutes before you don't need to look down at the nobs, you start working by feel or muscle memory pretty quickly.
Set the dominance up like your shooting someone on your playstation. (worked for me in those early days and still does) most guys have it working back to front. To pan right they push the joy stick left... tilt down they pull the stick towards them. Does my head in working in reverse. , but its easy to customise the controls to suite your brain.
Easier than you think.
Cineflex is a touch more fiddlier... Shotover panel is the easiest of them all. Not sure why as they the panels are pretty much the same. Maybe because the panel is layed out a bit simpler.

I recommend learning on the cineflex first using 2000mm lens. Alot of fun and you get your eye and controls settings really nailed. So when you fall back to only using a 30-300mm Cine ZOOM, it's like to easy.

Look.. that all said, Ive had some people on the panel & joystick and they are more lost then lost.... things pointing all directions bar where they want it. ? ... I think its the case of being able to rub your belly clockwise, rub the top of your head anti clockwise, shake your left leg anti clock... :)

Setting up the rig on the helicopter how ever is a process. I don't worry about that to much, thats what technicians do. :)
 
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Eclipse Multi-Cam Array

Eclipse Multi-Cam Array

Kemalettin Sert said:
6 camera system named Eclipse Multicam or Shotover Hydra? which one used on Jupiter Ascending movie?
Click to expand...

Jupiter Ascending VFX plates were shot with our Pictorvision Multi-cam Array installed in our gryo-stabilized Eclipse aerial camera system. I point that out because the Array (6 Red Dragons) can also be used with our XR ground head when on cranes or camera cars like it was on Avengers 2 and Jurassic World

Because all 6 cameras were stabilized down to 5 micro radians batch stitching them together was a much better process than with non-stabilzed arrays where each camera is moving independently. If interested we should move over to a new thread. Info can be found at:

http://www.pictorvision.com/aerial-products/multicam-array/

Regarding the original question of Cineflex vs Shotover, I think the previous comments sum the differences up accurately. But be just a bit patient and wait until spring to see what the mini-Eclipse can do. It's actually more stable than the original Eclipse yet in a 16" ball that can be flown on a single pole.
 
I've gotten per day quotes from several vendors here around LA, Shotover seems to be almost double the price per day vs Cineflex. Shotover is going to give me a demo at NAB this year so it'll be nice to see what its capable of. I haven't heard back what the added costs of the hydra system are but it looks awesome.
 
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