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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cine Zoom or Prime to up my game?

Eric Dennis

Eric Dennis

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I'm looking for advise from the community on spherical CINE zooms or primes that will help me up my game and help my images stick out a little more. I have a set of Zeiss ZF.2 lenses and Canon EF zooms that I like for some lower to mid-range productions as well as 2 new Atlas Anamorphics 40mm/80mm which are great. So I'm wondering what recommendations for spherical CINE zooms or primes I can look at in the 8K-12K price range. I've been looking at the many different CINE zooms in the 15-40mm range (Angenieux DP, Zeiss LWZ.2 etc) also Cooke mini S4 primes, Tokina Vista, Schneider Xenar-III etc. I could rent to test but don't think I can rent them all. Any advise? Will I see an improvement in my results? you'll have to assume I know how to get a great shot. Thanks!
 
Personally, I'd take a long look at the Sigma Cine Primes.

The Sigmas and Tokinas are in a class of their own at their price point.

The Sigmas are smaller, and a bit more affordable.

The Tokinas are a smidge better, but also much larger/heavier and more expensive.

Take your pick.

Zooms are that price point are hard, because unless you spend a bit more it's hard to optically improve on high quality EOS Zooms, what you are mostly paying for is mechanics.

The next step up is really the Angy Styles and Zeiss CPZ's.

Alllthough the new Tokina 25-70 look affordable and interesting, as is the Laowa 25-100.

It's a weird time in the lens market.

A lot is about to change as filmmakers switch to larger formats...
 
Thanks Nick! Yeah I've been thinking about the Sigma 18-35mm Cine as well but thought a used Angenieux DP must be better to justify the price having never used either. I had a beat on a Cooke s4/i CXX 15-40mm T2 that I thought would be perfect but turned out to be a scam.
 
Canon recently vastly reduced prices on their s35 cine zooms. At a budget of ~10 grand you can look for Fujinon cabrio 19-90, or a Arri Allura Studio zoom. Also there are options of older Cooke zooms, and Sigma/Tokina already mentioned above.
 
I love that Fuji 19-90, cause it’s only like 4 pounds and 19-90 on s35 is quite the range. That said, it’s sharp/clinical... as are the sigmas, Zeiss, etc.

The problem with most of the glass mentioned is they won’t make your images stand out from their stills/photography equivalents... they’re also all modern and lack what pundits call “organicness” or “character”, so again, tough to stand out.

What about sticking to your current glass but explore filters if you haven’t already? Mainstays like 1/8 black promist or Hollywood black magic... new diffusion’s like pearlescents, etc. Just something to make (for example) EF Sigma Art or your ZF primes pop and/or soften roll-off a little, etc. It’d be a hell of a lot cheaper and look a hell of a lot more unique than buying rehoused stills glass.

If you’re set on getting new glass, those cookes will stand out the most, but I didn’t think they were only 10-12k for a set.
 
Good options too thanks! I have been looking at 1/8 black pro mist as well and will likely do that path as well.

Cooke have been on the top of the list with a few others. Just worried about the cost of getting serval primes. I think that’s the most expensive option I’m considering. Angenieux Optimo DP also high on the list because of the zoom flexibility but it does look from what I’ve seen online a little too clinical. I’ll have to do a little research on the Fujinon zooms as well.
 
Everyone has their own opinion, but the Angenieux Optimo DP zooms don't seem clinical to me. Would suggest you look for more footy or take one out for a day. Used the DP zooms on a feature and found them forgiving, yet clean enough to intercut with modern primes. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
Optimos are definitely less clinical/contemporary looking than the Sigma Art Zooms (or any photography-turned-Cine zooms/primes I’ve used for that matter). Like the Opitmos look nicer than the Zeiss LWZs in my opinion... granted not as sharp and depending on sensor size can vignette (whereas the LWZ are FF).

Here’s a question for ya; when you say “up my game” and “make my images stand out” do you actually mean the captured image that ends up on screen, or your image on set (with producers and agency around)? I’m not being facetious; I’ve actually overheard non-technical people say some pretty outlandish things (e.g. a producer say “the image of the bigger camera (Ranger) looks much better” than a DSMC2 image, even though both were Gemini at same settings). Alls I’m saying is sometimes “bigger” (aka Cine-rehoused lenses) “look better” on set, and if that’s your aim, just go with the cheapest PL glass you can find... used RED Pro Prime sets are like ~$6k... same with Sony T2 mk1s... 18-85 RPzooms are even cheaper (granted that Fuji 19-90 is half the weight and from my limited 18-85 experience, the images aren’t too dissimilar).
 
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Perhaps its more about having the right lens for a particular shot. Or having color consistency to facilitate seamless cuts. It is about craft first - but having access to particular optics to execute a shot the way you envision is certainly a part of the equation.

Cheers - #19
 
I understand where everyone is coming from and agree with everything said above. I guess what I'm trying to ask is just like many equipment purchases I've made to invest into myself (I also invest in my education etc not just gear) what if anything would be the recommended progression I could make in investing in the glass side to "up my game" coming from Zeiss ZF.2 primes and EF Zooms and i mean captured image dont care about impressing on set. I understand the importance of lighting etc are huge as well. And being in a smaller market in Denver means having limited time with renting different sets of PL CINE primes and zooms. so is there an image quality difference i could obtain in the 8k-12k price range beyond Zeiss ZF.2 primes and EF Zooms not just ergonomics. Sounds like there is. I'd much prefer to invest in my glass then cameras.

Currently Top choices:
Cooke S4 mini's
Optimo DP's
Tokina Vista Primes
 
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AJ Young said:
I think you should get the rehoused Nikkors from Zero Optik. Stellar lenses in their own right.
Click to expand...

Hey AJ, I own a set of Nikkors and I prefer a slight vintage look with them and my only issue with the Nikkors is a lack of a fast wide option. I'm shooting S35 digital. Right now I have a 24mm f2 but the 18mm f3.5 was a bit slow and not a great looking lens. I was deciding between it, a 20mm f2.8 UD (the really old 20mm), and a 20mm f1.8 Sigma EX (from the 90s maybe?) or even putting a wide angle adapter on the 28mm f2 or 24mm f2 but can't figure out what's best. What do you use or recommend?
 
There are a lot of ways to "up your game," but it significantly depends what your game is. I agree that the Fujinon 19-90 can be a great choice-- as can the Fujinon 20-120 or Zeiss 21-100 in that price range--, but only if you want that look and a zoom fits your style of work.

If it's about making distinctive work, and if you feel your lighting game is in good shape (knowledge + equipment), I'd second the suggestion to develop an expertise with filters. Being able to predict what kind of an image you'll get from a black promist or digital diffusion or a net of a given strength with a given lens can be really huge for a lot of types of cinematography. (I learned the hard way, for example, what happens to that image I love from a Hollywood Black Magic 1/4 when suddenly confronted with a white background 2-3 stops above exposure!)

The other direction you might go would be a vintage zoom--you can find great stuff from Cooke (20-100, 18-100) and Angenieux (maybe 17-102?) in that range. Heavy (!), but feature a classic look quite distinct from the Fujinons (or Sigmas/Tokina, for that matter).

One other option that kinda splits the difference in look might be the Arri variable primes. I haven't shot with them myself, but you'll find a lot of people don't like them because they're heavy and offer limited zoom ranges. But then, that's why they're inexpensive for Arri glass.

Good luck!
 
Bob is right, only you can "up your game". Having said that (and I don't think you mentioned sensor size) since you have the Zeiss ZF.2 primes (which are wonderful lenses for what they are) then I'd recommend looking at the Zeiss LWZ.3 21-100mm zoom. You will have true cine zoom mechanics and also have an image that will cut very nicely with the Zeiss primes you own. There is a similarity in all Zeiss optics due to their coating technology.

If primes are your thing then I'd take a serious look at the Sigma cine prime set.
 
Matt W. said:
Hey AJ, I own a set of Nikkors and I prefer a slight vintage look with them and my only issue with the Nikkors is a lack of a fast wide option. I'm shooting S35 digital. Right now I have a 24mm f2 but the 18mm f3.5 was a bit slow and not a great looking lens. I was deciding between it, a 20mm f2.8 UD (the really old 20mm), and a 20mm f1.8 Sigma EX (from the 90s maybe?) or even putting a wide angle adapter on the 28mm f2 or 24mm f2 but can't figure out what's best. What do you use or recommend?
Click to expand...

Of the vintage Nikkor lenses, the lack of fast wide angle lenses is a bummer. I own the 20mm f2.8 and love it! Since they're designed for full frame, I've been able to use a focal reducer to size the image circle for S35 and M4/3 to get an extra stop of light out of it.

The modern, auto focus version of Nikon's 20mm goes to an f1.8 but lacks the manual controls of the older lenses. Not really an issue if Zero Optik rehouses it, though!
 
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