Charlton Heston Dies at 84

[Matthew Rogers]

Just a frustrating precision: A lot of you refer to United States as 'Americans', or 'North America', etc... And that's pretty annoying to some, if not pretentious...

So just a precision, again, to state ;P that North America is a HUGE continent, hosting 5 very different countries: Canada, Greenland, United States, Mexico, Bermuda... I think we should call United States americans "united staters" or something... Because technically, Cubans are americans, funnily enough... So correct me if I'm wrong, but besides continent, not even land, I'm not sure Mexicans share a lot with Greenlanders, nor Cubans with Canadians... So as far as 'gun talks' are concerned, keep it to the USofAY please... Since that's what this now Eston/NRA thread is about...

Except that I've never heard of a Mexican, Cuban, or Canadian refer to themselves as an American. In all my travels every time I've heard someone say, "American", they have referred to a person from the US. Therefore, I think it is fair to call us Americans. When other countries in North America add "America" to their country's name, then we can talk about changing the wording.

Matthew

 

[mdo]

Of course it is. There are about 5-7 cases where s father killed his whole familiy per anum here, because soldiers are allowed to take their rifles home.. and plenty suicides commited with them. It's not that they would use a hammer if they wouldn't find a rifle in their closet.

I never said, that mentality isn't a strong and probably bigger factor also.

Muroshi -- There are plenty of suicides that are committed with sleeping pills also. Did those sleeping pills cause the suicides? Because a means exists, does that "cause" people to access that means? You must believe that people just can't resist killing others if guns are around. All the evidence indicates the opposite.

Your position is actually a little bit different than you are perhaps willing to admit. Your position is actually that since some people are driven to violence and therefore cannot be trusted with firearms, and since we can't predict who those people might be, we should take firearms away from everyone.

It is a pretty thought. But it is utterly impossible to implement.

Why not get rid of the heroin problem by making heroin illegal? If heroin is illegal, there won't be any more of it. Right?

Simple observation will tell you that making heroin illegal only ensures that law-abiding people will not have heroin. Criminals on the other hand will have all they want. The same is the case for guns, except that guns are a lot easier to make in your basement. This is not really a matter for debate. Again, violence goes up, not down, when gun rights are restricted, and that is because criminals can have greater confidence that those they attack cannot defend themselves.

With respect to the actual causes of violence -- as long as people are chasing red herrings like gun control, the actual causes will remain unaddressed. You seem to have attention on the problem of violence, but I bet you have no idea how many prescription medications do in fact cause violence. How many of the soldiers who went home and committed suicide were being given prescription medications that are known to generate suicidal thoughts? The person who commits suicide has enough of an intention to do so to put a gun to his/her head and pull the trigger. Why are you so confident that if a gun weren't present they wouldn't do the same thing through some other means?

Violence is a real problem. Those who cause the problem prefer to talk about guns rather than the real causes. Don't help them to muddy up the water by echoing their misdirection.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

What you refer to as natives, we call in french "amérindiens", or "indiens d'amérique du nord"... To differenciate from "Indians from India" indians...

You're right buddy, I was kinda playing with words, and like someone once said on this forum, maybe I should've put more smiley's on my post, but all the same, it's a problem when it comes down to geo-politics... If I may...

I agree it's fair to call yourselves americans, nobody discusses that, I just think that it would also be fair to bring some new modern term like "afro-american", "native american", italo american"...

Could be "american american"...

Never thought I'd have so much fun just buying a camera... :clown2:

PS: Where's Eston? Gone hunting? err... Angels?

(sorry I can't help it, I'm just a sarcastic cunt...)

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

karapetkov, you really started a mess!

If someone gets killed in that thread, you're responsible!

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I think it's time I quote Truffaut...

FERRAND

Tell him I speak English, but I don't understand it.

from "La Nuit Américaine" ("Day for Night" - 1973)

 

[jaadgy akanni]

Was it you who met Columbus on the shore?

:clown2:

Yeah, but I was out of luck 'cause I didn't have any guns or diseases to keep him at bay.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

And I tried to throw snowballs at him but he was too far...

 

[wshultz]

Wow. When I read that this great actor had died I thought to myself that now we're going to hear from some (insert weird name-types here) from (insert some foreign country here) who will attack this man's character and intelligence because one of the things he accomplished was representation of an organization promoting american freedoms?

Muroshi, do you ever get tired of people judging your country because you'll take money from any evil regime or person and keep it secret just so you can make a buck?

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I HAD A VISION!

Muroshi, the answer is in your avatar...

Guns are like a swiss knife that does just one thing...

Kill.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Sorry, guns do 2 things!

It can also signals the start of a race...

 

[Yannick Hagman]

Muroshi -- There are plenty of suicides that are committed with sleeping pills also. Did those sleeping pills cause the suicides? Because a means exists, does that "cause" people to access that means? You must believe that people just can't resist killing others if guns are around. All the evidence indicates the opposite.

Just because there are doesn't mean that the subject is using them instead (it's about 99% versus something around 60%) and if someone uses them there is a lot lower chance that he suceeds in killing himself with sleeping pills. arms are the only almost certain way.

several university studies here revealed recently that availability is a major factor. they now have forbidden taking amunition home and we will see surprisingly results next year or so. it's a proven that in case of a snap-out availability is key. this is in fact very locigal. killing your family with a rifle is way "easier" than with a knife or a hammer after all and snap-outs are not well planned actions.

Your position is actually a little bit different than you are perhaps willing to admit. Your position is actually that since some people are driven to violence and therefore cannot be trusted with firearms, and since we can't predict who those people might be, we should take firearms away from everyone.

of course there's a unnecessary risk. it's not about violence, this snap-out subjects aren't usually very violent guys untill their final action and their motive isn't related to violence after all. they are guys who can't handle stress. and how violent is a father who was just to stupid to store his properly and letting his boys play around with it? i admit that this are seldom sportsmen.

Why not get rid of the heroin problem by making heroin illegal? If heroin is illegal, there won't be any more of it. Right?

It's not the same matter but I believe it is illegal in the US. It's not really the same issue because there is a timeframe for prevention till some drug-addict dies on heroin.

Simple observation will tell you that making heroin illegal only ensures that law-abiding people will not have heroin. Criminals on the other hand will have all they want. The same is the case for guns, except that guns are a lot easier to make in your basement. This is not really a matter for debate. Again, violence goes up, not down, when gun rights are restricted, and that is because criminals can have greater confidence that those they attack cannot defend themselves.

Yeah, criminals will earn bigger money by selling arms (which are not really easy to manufacture), but people don't feel urged to get them like drugs if I look around here.. If that would be the case we would have way more here in Europe where you need an approval and aren't allowed to wear 'em. The opposite is true, we have way lower homocide rates in western Europe countries, where arms are scarce or registered goods.

Violence is a real problem. Those who cause the problem prefer to talk about guns rather than the real causes. Don't help them to muddy up the water by echoing their misdirection.

That's true. But well, arms allow them to proceed their violence in a more dangerous way for everyone else.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

who will attack this man's character and intelligence because one of the things he accomplished was representation of an organization promoting american freedoms?

Promote freedom with arms? Now that's antagonism.

Muroshi, do you ever get tired of people judging your country because you'll take money from any evil regime or person and keep it secret just so you can make a buck?

You mean like the USA did. Not to say the current presidents family.

No, unfortunately for me I don't work as a banker. But better ask this question to some guys at Merril Lnych to stay at present.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

Guns are like a swiss knife that does just one thing...Kill

You don't know about MacGyver. )

 

[Anthony Gratl]

When I read that this great actor had died I thought to myself that now we're going to hear from some (insert weird name-types here) from (insert some foreign country here) who will attack this man's character and intelligence because one of the things he accomplished was representation of an organization promoting american freedoms?

More americans are incarcerated per capita then anywhere else on the planet, including China, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia. What does that say to you about freedom in America?
And if the NRA is about defending american freedom, and it's to protect yourself against your government (which I can accept as a rationale), then how much worse does your federal government and political structure need to be in order for y'all to get on with it? (i mean c'mon, you get to choose between TWO parties, and there's no end in sight for corporate media domination, nor for actual public EDUCATION) At least, that's how it looks from here in non-america.

Thoughts from a "weird name guy" in a "foreign country" (a little xenophobic are we?)

 

[wshultz]

More americans are incarcerated per capita then anywhere else on the planet, including China, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia. What does that say to you about freedom in America?
And if the NRA is about defending american freedom, and it's to protect yourself against your government (which I can accept as a rationale), then how much worse does your federal government and political structure need to be in order for y'all to get on with it? (i mean c'mon, you get to choose between TWO parties, and there's no end in sight for corporate media domination, nor for actual public EDUCATION) At least, that's how it looks from here in non-america.

Thoughts from a "weird name guy" in a "foreign country" (a little xenophobic are we?)

That's funny. A little USAphobic are we?

 

[Eddie]

Muroshi... Charlton Heston was the man...and there is nothing you can do about it

Touch of evil - intro

And as far as I know, america is still a democracy, which means their gun policy is decided by the elected majority, not by propagandistic documentaries.
Why does so many europeans jump up and start preaching, taking it for granted that they know better than the majority of the people actually living in the country?
Availability is not neccesarily the main problem, because then you would have to prove that guns are more available to blacks and hispanics since they account for 8 out of 10 convicted murderers.
Problems in my oppionion are the many illegal immigrants, and the historical disadvantages of black people which together with the hugh-scale drugmarkets makes a violent cocktail of organised crime. However I have no idea what to do about it from a moral or political standpoint. But I know that making a whole documentary about NOT mentioning it and get ubelievably uptight, when the issue is raised by Heston, seems in my oppinion immoral and dishonest... but hey... I am a dane, how would I know. I have never even seen a gun.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Mods please change the thread to "Everyone bash the Frakking Americans..."

We all have problems guys, I am not happy with the "State of the United of The United States" and I was born and raised here... but I have also lived in many other countries and appreciate them for the good, for the unique and the interesting people.

I like most everyone here, but I find it very disrespectful to have these arguments at the feet of someone's death. A horrible death where one truly loses one's mind.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

The truly absurd angle is that this man, whether you liked his politics or not... he contributed more to the art and craft of Cinema more than the collective of anyone here... (you get what I mean)

Why is this necessary?

dudeman is fully right. I second the motion. No matter what we're thinking about this or that subject. Just subjects, right? His work as picture maker is what does count now. His inheritance. What will prevail tomorrow.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

That's funny. A little USAphobic are we?

Not so much. Hitched, drove, bussed, and took trains through the good old usa. Met lots of kind and generous people. But your politics and laws and punishments are scary bad. Very limited and framed discussion in mainstream america. The O'Reilly Factor is the number one watched political show. Very myopic. Makes me a little concerned I suppose. You have very dangerous people in positions of power, from police to the pentagon and cia. Reaping death across the country and across the planet. The evidence is all over the place, and chronicled by many concerned americans. And the political leaders who want to make real change get shot. And don't get me started on the beer.

Having opened my trap as usual, I agree with Dudeman that the thread is way off topic and verging into poor taste. I've contributed to the wandering, also probably as usual. In this case though, I really didn't and don't wish to speak poorly or disrespect the departed, so rather take this reminder to make my own contributions to filmmaking and change, and bless the ground for every day of life it grants me.
Peace and goodwill to all.

 

[fightordie]

Muroshi... Charlton Heston was the man...and there is nothing you can do about it

Touch of evil - intro

Problems in my oppionion are the many illegal immigrants, and the historical disadvantages of black people which together with the hugh-scale drugmarkets makes a violent cocktail of organised crime.

You'd do well to read Immigrant crime as an exaggerated fear: the evidence here:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html#fear

Speaking as an American: Misinformation for votes. These kind of statements, political in origin, for political gain are despicable. Whats even more despicable is a public that buys into it.

Fear is American tradition and the basis for most of our problems. Politicians know this and use it to get elected or push their agendas. There are no boogeymen except the ones in our heads.

And for those Heston fans read this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...n-heston-as-you-wont-remember-him-805398.html

But after 50 he lost it. Maybe the combo of Alzheimer's and Reagan, the creator of modern day divisive politics, made him into someone who says things like 'the mixing of the races' were the reasons for violence in America. Sad when you see what he did earlier in his life.

 

[Poi Boy]

Hes was a good but not a great actor. RIP
Aloha
-A