Challenge to Zacuto...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Live shootout at CineGear

Live shootout at CineGear

I propose a live shootout at CineGear. Divide a soundstage into several sections, each manufacturer has their own zone, people can observe the shootout and put suggested tests into a random drawing so nobody can prepare for specific challenges in advance. Each team is given 30 minutes to process the footage and feed it out to an adjoining room where several viewing zones offer various display environments from a laptop screen to 4K projection. Everything is fed through a master control system that shows full screen and quad splits on a rotating schedule. Observers can study the live scene with their own eyes and then compare it to the captured version being shown next door.

One thing I like about this approach is that it puts a premium on the ability to faithfully recreate scene values. I also like the fact that DPs can get out their light meters and other tools to evaluate the lighting on the set then see the results at the other end of the signal chain. IMO this "feedback loop" will be of great use to DPs in gaining understanding of how each camera system performs in the metrics they care most about.

Other details TBD. Initial thoughts on staging would be to create the rough equivalent of parade floats for the sets that included a lighting grid so they could be rolled around and positioned equally for each camera team. Lenses supplied by a major LA rental house with enough inventory and lens testing acumen to provide closely matched versions of popular lenses, distributed to the camera teams by lottery. Obviously I'm just scratching the surface in terms of details and an event like this would require lots of resources to execute, but, it sure would be fun ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Tom Lowe]

Cinema cameras should be tested at 4K, not 1080p. Nearly every serious cinema camera company now is making flagship 4K cameras, not 1080p.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Cinema cameras should be tested at 4K, not 1080p. Nearly every serious cinema camera company now is making flagship 4K cameras, not 1080p.

See Tom, that's the thing. You mention cinema camera. If all people were using RED for was cinema applications I think the discussion is a bit different. But they're not. They're using them for commercials, music videos, high end corporate, stock footage, and even web video. Of all these, none of them have a real distribution path for 4K at the moment. Alexa, although used on features is used a lot in those categories mentioned and deliverables (real-world deliverables) are 720P, 1080i, 1080P and I'm sure still a few SD formats as well. So Steve is not wrong in his assessment but I also agree with Jim that 4K is coming, in particular with theaters and most likely in the home once we move to scalable content distribution that is streamed to a high resolution screen or projector. But if Steve is doing a documentary about where things are at in 2012, he's kind of right.

I'm finding this discussion a bit disconcerting. I think there are more productive ways to get information out to people. I think RED and other camera manufacturers have a lot of means of getting their message out to people, to the masses in constructive, informative ways that allow people to use their tools most efficiently. It's starting to seem like we're going in the wrong direction. Doesn't have a good vibe to me.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Usability, check.

Usability, check.

Jim, (snip)
Now I have a challenge for you. I bet that in our 2K screening that you would not be able to pick your camera out between the Alexa & F65 and maybe some of the others. I've watched this thing a hundred times and all of us in the color timing room are like "which camera is this" Rodney was doing it, Bruce was doing it, I was, the higher end cameras all look very similar even when shot with different DP's and lighting schemes. It's very hard to tell the difference (we are splitting hairs), which is good news for you because your price point is the best. Now it all boils down to creature comforts, design, use, workflow, speed and preference. Again there is tons of business for everyone and an ass for every saddle. Signing off, Steve

Not only does the Epic win the price point battle with the F65 or the Alexa, it is also smaller and lighter. The RedMags with the onboard SSD modules are the best media form factor I have ever worked with. Due to its small size the Epic can be configured to suit virtually any operator or assignment. Bottom line - if the images are functionally the same (Steve's assertion, not mine) then the Epic would be my choice on usability grounds. Of course that might not mean much posted here on RedUser from one of the earliest adopters, but I think it passes the logic test nonetheless.

Cheers - #19

 

[Jannard]

Steve.. the thing I challenge is whether what you shoot today has any merit going forward. TV shows that were shot SD back in the day never had an HD release. I wonder what they would do now. "Welcome Back Kotter" comes to mind. If all your work will only be shown in 2012... maybe you are right. But that doesn't sound like a professional piece of work to me.

Zacuto can shoot any test they want for whatever goal they set. We have said that we make professional cameras. So for us to participate in a test that doesn't address the current and future of image capture just doesn't make sense to us.

The whole message of the Reduser party, sponsored and presented by LightIron, was to make the case that 4K is now. To then ignore that message doesn't feel right for our company.

Jim

See Tom, that's the thing. You mention cinema camera. If all people were using RED for was cinema applications I think the discussion is a bit different. But they're not. They're using them for commercials, music videos, high end corporate, stock footage, and even web video. Of all these, none of them have a real distribution path for 4K at the moment. Alexa, although used on features is used a lot in those categories mentioned and deliverables (real-world deliverables) are 720P, 1080i, 1080P and I'm sure still a few SD formats as well. So Steve is not wrong in his assessment but I also agree with Jim that 4K is coming, in particular with theaters and most likely in the home once we move to scalable content distribution that is streamed to a high resolution screen or projector. But if Steve is doing a documentary about where things are at in 2012, he's kind of right.

I'm finding this discussion a bit disconcerting. I think there are more productive ways to get information out to people. I think RED and other camera manufacturers have a lot of means of getting their message out to people, to the masses in constructive, informative ways that allow people to use their tools most efficiently. It's starting to seem like we're going in the wrong direction. Doesn't have a good vibe to me.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Jim: if "4K is now" then maybe you could have helped Zacuto to find 4K venues to show their test around the world?

Looking forward, 2013 should be much better and presumably Zacuto will do 4K for their test that year.

But good, calibrated 4K projection will still be difficult to find so I hope that you guys work with them on that?

I really think that the time to complain about the Zacuto test final results being shown at 2K was back when they were planning it (6 months ago?) and asking you guys for input.

Not now that they are done with the test and showing the finished files. That's just rude.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Sergio Perez]

EDIT- THis post was written right after Jim's but Bruce replied first. the "exactly" is a direct reply to Jim Jannard's previous post.

Exactly. Like I said previously, try integrating Beta Sp in an HD show or in a 2k movie. That's what 1080p will look like in the next image upgrade. We are not talking if, but when. Are your images worth future proofing? Mine are, and 4k is the way to do it. And also let's not forget- red's 4k is an entire ecosystem with its efficient and revolutionary raw codec . The others require external recording...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Of course Scarlet is the best camera out there - because it's the one I own. Talk to me right after Sony graciously gives me an F65 and maybe I'll feel different (for awhile). :lol:

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Steve.. the thing I challenge is whether what you shoot today has any merit going forward. TV shows that were shot SD back in the day never had an HD release. I wonder what they would do now. "Welcome Back Kotter" comes to mind. If all your work will only be shown in 2012... maybe you are right. But that doesn't sound like a professional piece of work to me.

Zacuto can shoot any test they want for whatever goal they set. We have said that we make professional cameras. So for us to participate in a test that doesn't address the current and future of image capture just doesn't make sense to us.

The whole message of the Reduser party, sponsored and presented by LightIron, was to make the case that 4K is now. To then ignore that message doesn't feel right for our company.

Jim

Jim, your message of 4K being the future is the right one. I believe we will see displays in the home be less about 1080 or 720 or 480 and more about scalable resolutions. For example, you can download Netflix 4K if you have the bandwith or you can download 1080/720 if you don't. Your display will adapt. So that part, I have never doubted you on. Theaters will go 4K unless there is prohibitive cost and business is not good. Only time will tell on that. I think people will love sports in 4K. Superbowl in 4K will be amazing.

But anyone working out in the trenches right now knows that it's not entirely a reality...yet. So, we have to work within the requirements of jobs. If a client is willing to pay me $100K for a video to be shot on an Alexa at 1080P, then yes that is professional work that is relevant to business today. What they do with that content in 5 years is up to them. Would I rather they shoot at RED 4K or 5K? Probably, but for a variety of reasons, not just resolution.

I believe wholeheartedly that the way to win over even more people is to do this in a non-combative way. In other words, build the best camera systems available, for the best price-point available, and educate people on why it's the best system available for their projects. If RED built junky cameras, none of us would be here having this conversation. You would have folded two to three years ago. The fact is, you build great cameras and you sell them at a price-point that is affordable to many people. That leaves the last part. Educating people. Spreading the word about how to get the most out of them. Reduser is only one community. There's a huge planet, lots of facilities, lots of producers who don't even know what Reduser is. Get to them and you start to spread facts, not fiction. Eliminate the noise and fill it with a symphony and you get followers. Align yourself with the best talent in the world, which i think you have done well, and you build loyalty that then spreads in those circles. I love Reduser. But there are a lot of people here who have not worked in the real world, on big projects with lots of moving parts and lots of politics.

I know you guys are capable of great things. You have proven that. But there's always room to grow. There's always more people to reach. Finding the best way to do that is the key. I don't know that a camera shootout does it. Providing people with a wealth of resources probably does.

I respect you guys. I only say things that I hope helps. If it doesn't, I will stop.

 

[Phil Holland]

But good, calibrated 4K projection will still be difficult to find so I hope that you guys work with them on that?

As of this second there are several 4k theaters in every state in the USA except for: North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming.

On the coasts there's what I would call a good number of 4k equipped theaters.

 

[Andy White]

Cine cameras vs HD broadcast cameras vs HD prosumer camcorders/hybrids vs DSLR's et al.

Apples to oranges to pears to potatoes (LOL).

All have a place and all have a different price point that will be vociferously defended or attacked by the 'cine-geek' hordes...

HD footage can look great if handled by experts. 4K/5K can look awful if handled by DSLR kids.

Every year these Zacuto tests polarize opinion and people use as a benchmark for quality (or seeming lack of). I remember when the AF100 really looked bad in the last test (and it's not as bad as people think. Now a GH2 with hack is included... (!) err - would any of us really want to take hacked GH2's on a decent budget production? I'd feel uncomfortable unless I had a lot if back up bodies...

IMO, trying to portray all cameras in a test situation that creates a 'level playing field' just doesn't work. Each has strengths/weaknesses that won't come out in this test (ie the Zacuto one).

I'd rather see an ASC test... or maybe a stop to the Zacuto shoot out concept (as it stands now) and something else put in it's place.

If everyone will do the RED test, that'll be great... but I think all the anti-RED crowd will still scream and shout.

 

[steve weiss]

Steve.. the thing I challenge is whether what you shoot today has any merit going forward. TV shows that were shot SD back in the day never had an HD release. I wonder what they would do now. "Welcome Back Kotter" comes to mind. If all your work will only be shown in 2012... maybe you are right. But that doesn't sound like a professional piece of work to me.

Zacuto can shoot any test they want for whatever goal they set. We have said that we make professional cameras. So for us to participate in a test that doesn't address the current and future of image capture just doesn't make sense to us.

The whole message of the Reduser party, sponsored and presented by LightIron, was to make the case that 4K is now. To then ignore that message doesn't feel right for our company.

Jim

I totally agree with you Jim as a case for shooting 4K today for archival purposes in the future. Not sure why you picked Welcome Back Kotter but I would love to see Marcia Strassman (Mrs. Kotter) in 4K, man I had a crush on her. I have so many projects that I shot in the 80's and 90's, some on film, that later got transferred to 1", Betacam, Digibeta, D5 and now I'm screwed. I really need to go back to the film and re-transfer which I might do one day but the edit was done in SD which proves your archival point because I'm not going back to the original film and doing a re-edit, not from something almost 30 years old. But Hollywood is also having this problem and can't decide at what point to archive, 8 years ago, Disney did a re-archieval on Digi-Beta for all of their TV/DVD assets. Now they are stuck with NTSC. So for TV and features I see nothing wrong with shooting, editing and finishing in 4K for future use and like many have said maybe next year or the year after it will make sense to screen in 4K if the theaters are there but there will be a whole new crop of cameras then. Regardless, I think the increased data (which you started) is getting to the point where we are not going to notice the differences that much anymore and it's really going to get back to people. Just from what I've seen.

I still contend that the most important element of any shoot is the food! People, please budget good, light food. Hungry people are mad. Overfed people go slow. ;-)

 

[Paul Schneider]

I'm finding this discussion a bit disconcerting. I think there are more productive ways to get information out to people. I think RED and other camera manufacturers have a lot of means of getting their message out to people, to the masses in constructive, informative ways that allow people to use their tools most efficiently. It's starting to seem like we're going in the wrong direction. Doesn't have a good vibe to me.

Completely agree. Its unfocused and confusing as to who the equipment is aimed for. Much of it seems like children fighting.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Neutral field...

Neutral field...

(snip) I propose a live shootout at CineGear. (snip)

Ironically I wrote the "Live shootout at CineGear" post completely unaware that Jim had started a thread on hosting a test at RED. Too funny.

In any case, if it were possible to arrange a test at CineGear rather than at RSH (Red Studios Hollywood) would that quell the "home field" objections?

I would also point out that my suggestion included showing the material on several disparate display devices. Epic and F65 might have an advantage in the 4K projection arena, but what about on a 1080P Panny plasma, iPad, etc.

FWIW I am interested in seeing how each camera system reproduces actual scene values as a reference point I can use when choosing how to portray a particular scene to support creative intent or how each one interacts with particular lenses, etc. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but fidelity is much more objective.

One of my favorite tests for high end speaker systems is to stage a live performance, record it, then play it back immediately after through each amp/speaker combo in succession, then have the musicians play the same piece again, repeat. How close to "real" does each system sound compared to the actual live performance as a reference. Yes, mic choice/placement was debated endlessly - as lighting and set materials would be - but it was the closest thing to an apples to apples comparison I ever heard. Just saying'

Cheers - #19

 

[Peter Moretti]

Steve Weiss,

I comprehend your argument that 4K exhibition is still rare in 2012 and you want to focus on the here and now. But surely reframing is a here and now requirement for many shoots. So why not include an image blow-up in requirement in the post workflow?

Here is an excerpt from a post I made earlier in this thread.

Steve,

...

Resolution doesn't only matter when it comes to 4K exhibition, it also very much matters when you need to resize the image in post. So simply have, as a post requirement, cropping and blowing up the image let's say 1.5X to 5X.

The ability to reframing is a valid need, and quick zooms to add "excitement" have become commonplace in many TV shows, music videos, etc..

So why not add blowing up the image in post as a requirement? That's not thinking about tomorrow, it's thinking about today .


P.S. Thanks for the work that you do.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Too many Steves in the room. Hopefully people don't get us confused when quotes are thrown around.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Good point, LOL! ... added a last name.

 

[Leo Sardello]

This is how this thread reads to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L8U5tKTTWo

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Fidelity

Fidelity

David Mullen makes an excellent point about how all tests are inherently biased to some degree but if you do enough of them trends emerge.

My dream test would include the ability to walk onto the stage and observe the set with the naked eye, then stroll into an adjoining viewing room and see the reproduced image.

Yes, storytelling may be better served by a presentation that evokes emotional responses influenced by frame rates, grading choices, etc - that's another thread. I am simply trying to create a test that DPs can use when formulating shooting strategies in service of a particular assignment. If camera "X" lends itself to a "dreamier" feel or camera "Y" offers a colder rendition, etc - that is information you can use. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[Erich Ocean]

Reduser is only one community. There's a huge planet, lots of facilities, lots of producers who don't even know what Reduser is.

Reduser isn't helpful to the kinds of producers and facilities who don't already know that it exists. Sending them here will just confirm what they already think: Red is hard to use, and has a complicated workflow.

RedUser is only barely helpful to the people that do frequent RedUser already, thanks to the very low signal to noise ratio (which, incidentally, has gone down a lot after Nov 3, 2011). I've been following Red since Jim started talking about it on DVXuser years ago, I own an Epic-X now, and I still have low confidence in the workflow I use, even though I'm getting good results.

In the end, I think the RDC camera/company is doing about as well as it should be, given the camera and workflow Jim wants to build (super-configurable, RAW-only, community-support via RedUser).

This is as good as it gets when there's this many ways to screw things up, or more positively, ways to get things right.

So, no solutions from me, but I don't think we can complain when people choose other systems for ease of use reasons. Of all the reasons not to use Red, that's the one IMO that has the most legitimacy.

Most producers don't want a camera they have to have a great deal of education to use correctly and get good results from, and no amount of specs talk on RedUser about, e.g. resolution, is going to convince them they do.