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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Challenge to Zacuto...

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Gavin Greenwalt said:
I wouldn't say R3D all the way through post is the only fair test. Has a single RED feature been done that way yet? I doubt it. And why would they when you have REDLogFilm or EXR?

And even Prometheus, probably the highest profile RED project right now is finishing in 2k.
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Prometheus is finishing 2K? Those guys don't know 4K projectors will be in all theaters before the end of this decade? How stupid you have to be to finish 2K when NO ONE is going to watch it 2K in theaters in 2015!!! What a losers hahaha!
 
Josh Snyder said:
Prometheus is finishing 2K? Those guys don't know 4K projectors will be in all theaters before the end of this decade? How stupid you have to be to finish 2K when NO ONE is going to watch it 2K in theaters in 2015!!! What a losers hahaha!
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Awesome. Calling Ridley Scott stupid. Well done, Josh. Someone remove this post please.... it's embarrassing.
 
Mark Toia said:
But I still stand by my opinion of showing the cameras full potential against other cameras full potential... 4k is the future of cinema moving forward.
Down converting RED's 4k images to suite lessor 2k cameras is still not a fair test.
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You don't know that image looks way sharper when it's downscaled? EPIC should win the 2K test easily if its pixels are as good as the pixels in other cameras.

Are you and others really this afraid that EPIC 5K downscaled to 2K might not look as good as some other cameras that shoot 2K?
 
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Jiri Bakala said:
Awesome. Calling Ridley Scott stupid. Well done, Josh. Someone remove this post please.... it's embarrassing.
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Sorry if the sarcasm was too hard to see on that one. BUT, what I wrote in that post is what most people are saying in these boards about people who finish 2K.

The funniest thing is that 99% of the people who whine about Zacuto finishing the test in 2K actually finish their own films/clips in 2K. Hypocrites, someone would say.
 
Whatever the real strengths and weaknesses of the various "A" camera options on the market, there is a tangentially connected issue of perception. I believe Ketch has noted a closing of ranks in the rental and post arenas using FUD to advance the Alexa beyond its genuine merits (nice color matrix, build quality, SxS Pro-Res, etc).

Cheers - #19
 
Oh well, we have a new kind of race...

You take a Corvette and a Formula One, and you limit the top speed to 150 mph and 450 hp...

New method of comparing...

New...to say the least...


Antoine
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Whatever the real strengths and weaknesses of the various "A" camera options on the market, there is a tangentially connected issue of perception.
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That is why I for one, will be particularly interested to see how the "empirical" portion of the shoot out is conducted. Their definitions will be the source of the most scrutiny, as always.

Unless they can remove the influence of aesthetics from the results of the tests those results will be flawed. I'm not sure a Director of Photography is a better choice to conduct those tests than the director of a laboratory. Empirical testing is a scientific endeavor, not art. Why hire an artist to generate scientific test data?

Photography is representational and has to be interpreted by the viewer. Until the camera and exhibition system being tested is creating measurable three dimensional forms in three dimensional space it will not be possible to eliminate the variables of perception. (edit: I don't think. Some Physisist could no doubt explain why I am wrong.)
 
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Antoine Fabi said:
Oh well, we have a new kind of race...

You take a Corvette and a Formula One, and you limit the top speed to 150 mph and 450 hp...

New method of comparing...

New...to say the least...


Antoine
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That analogy is flawed big time. Proper one for you: they don't limit the top speed, they make the formula smaller so it goes even faster. Just like the EPIC 5K looks alot sharper when it's downslaced to 2K.

If they shot the EPIC footage using 2K mode then your analogy would be correct, but they don't.
 
Jiri Bakala said:
Hmm, strong words. Market forces, loyalties, form factor, personal preferences, reliability, accessories, marketing. Neither right nor wrong, just a plain and simple reality. Good luck changing that status.
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Yes Jiri,

strong words indeed, I believe that one should be voicing opinions strongly and loudly, I in fact agree with you, but nonetheless I stand to make a change as far as I can, with the power of my voice, my words, my work, and well, my facilities once they are open, and trust and remember my words when I said that I would make people see the difference.

If they then choose to change for the better or not will always be up to the individual, but at list there will be an other strong voice amidst, which they can compare to the highly advertised ones which does not deliver half of what it should, yet it is chosen over RED EPIC because of misconception, high paid advertisements, marketing campaigns with dealers and rental houses and so on.

RED has achieved all that has at a global scale in the Major Film Industry with ZERO of all of that, been the recent VOGUE spread the first ADVERTISEMENT RED gas ever done, that is the true power to me, yet I wish people would see it more clearly, why?

BECAUSE I ABSOLUTELY LOVE MOVIES!!

Yet I enjoy viewing them in the best format possible, 10 years ago was SD, 5 years ago was HD, few years ago was 2k, today is 4k, and it will be more so as we go in the the future... So I wish to enjoy all my favorite movies form all my Directors colleagues in 4K, and not cry out that I wish they were done in 4k and not in 1080p, which by then I'll bee looking at them in a 100' screen or even in a small 100" TV in 4k and they will look washed out, stretched out, just not glorious at all as a MOVIE should be IMO, that is all... ;)
 
Last years Zacuto Shoot out really bothered me because in most tests they used an external recorder for the cameras. That gave a leg up for some cameras where their codec was weak but their SDI stream was strong. This though hurt RED. The R3D is the magic of RED and not using it in a test instantly makes the camera not stand up as well because its missing its greatest asset.
 
Josh Snyder said:
Sorry if the sarcasm was too hard to see on that one. BUT, what I wrote in that post is what most people are saying in these boards about people who finish 2K.

The funniest thing is that 99% of the people who whine about Zacuto finishing the test in 2K actually finish their own films/clips in 2K. Hypocrites, someone would say.
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Accepted.... :)
 
I want to do a shootout between distribution of 4k and 2k. But I don't want anyone told before they go in. 100 people in a 2k theater and 100 people in a 4k theater. Then I want a little questionaire on image quality, sharpness etc. I would be very interested to see if the 4k theater gets any extra points for quality. The best, most vibrant, sharp image I saw at NAB this year was a Pioneer 1080p plasma.
 
But a Corvette and an F1 are designed to do essentially different things. Racing is highly specialized. Making films for movie theater exhibition as of now is not, even though you could argue that the top machines employed are similarly specialized. We basically have two flavors; IMAX and...? Is 2k actually dominant right now I don't know the numbers.

So it is a fair argument that we have a choice of two tracks, and one of them is going to yield an advantge for some competitors. Do you run the F1 on an oval, or the 'Vette on a grand Prix track? What factors do you consider when you make that choice? How valid will the result be?

The Cars 2 analogy is actually better; NASCAR v. F1 :-)

Antoine Fabi said:
Oh well, we have a new kind of race...

You take a Corvette and a Formula One, and you limit the top speed to 150 mph and 450 hp...

New method of comparing...

New...to say the least...


Antoine
Click to expand...
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
... The best, most vibrant, sharp image I saw at NAB this year was a Pioneer 1080p plasma.
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I'm just curious if you saw the Canon 4k theater presentation. I was really surprised and impressed! 1080p really does suffer by comparison, which was clear in the slow-mo shots in that 4k piece, as well as the following 1080p shorts. I thought the Red Loom 3d short looked great, but I wish Red also had just a 4k 2d showreel to show off 4k material at 4k.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I want to do a shootout between distribution of 4k and 2k. But I don't want anyone told before they go in. 100 people in a 2k theater and 100 people in a 4k theater. Then I want a little questionaire on image quality, sharpness etc. I would be very interested to see if the 4k theater gets any extra points for quality. The best, most vibrant, sharp image I saw at NAB this year was a Pioneer 1080p plasma.
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Comparing a 1080 plasma on a trade show floor to a 40-60' 4k image in a theatre is a lot like comparing a 5k camera and an HD camera, no? There needs to be a framework for comparison and I'm not sure one exists.

FUBAR, the entire discussion is FUBAR.
 
Reading through all 10 pages of this discussion, I feel something needs to be brought into the equation.

Something that should be noted, perhaps a bit outside of this test and what it's all about, is where exactly we are with motion picture technology.

Right now and for a while 1080p will be a standard capture format and delivery format.

However, the industry is advancing and evolving at an accelerated pace. We are looking at a time when theater owners need to stay competitive and have an edge on broadcast outlets. There is a fully immersive experience waiting for viewers at the theater when images are projected at 4k in 3D or 2D. 4k is already at theaters and will saturate more and more. 4k will be coming to homes and will come down in price just as 1080p displays were once did. Without any doubt in my mind the industry's current intentions are focused on a 4k delivery standard. It is the future of motion picture entertainment.

We are in a time of growth. We're going to see a lot of camera manufacturers releasing different cameras in the next 2-3 years as they hone in on what works and what doesn't. I saw a lot of what doesn't and a few "almosts" at NAB 2012. Today there are more camera choices than ever at a large variety of price points. Red did digital 4k acquisition first and they did it right. Now they've built on that. They don't make "economy cameras", but they do make great "race-cameras" built for the motion picture professional.

If you feel like I feel about the beauty that can be held within a frame you likely don't ever want to shoot in anything less than 4k from here on out. The same can be said for the power of raw capture and the post workflow. For me, it's a dream come true.

Red is not hype. They currently make the highest quality digital motion picture cameras on the market. The post workflow is simpler than many believe. Misinformation and misconception are the enemy of all camera manufacturers. Many direct a lot of energy towards Red to diminish what exactly their cameras can actually do in the right hands. But, as many of us here actually know, in the right hands they can do amazing wonderful things. Red Epic in particular represents a vision of bringing a digital motion picture camera to market that is literally (in my mind at least) an alternative to motion picture film cameras. Compared to the Super 35mm cameras and processing, the Red DSMC form factor and post workflow is about 100% more desirable. It's also more time and cost effective. This is why Red has penetrated the market so deeply in the world of feature films in particular.

The Zacuto test will be interesting. In reality, it's a test that can be done in a day or two at a major rental house. It's actually a test that has been done by many working professionals already. I don't even know how many I've shot over the years for Directors, DPs, and studios. There is extreme validity to doing these camera tests. Finding out what cameras can and can't do is important. Every DP should know the advantages and disadvantages of their equipment. I fully agree with Jim that there should be a 4k finish involved with this test.

I will say this crazed mindset that "my camera is better than your camera" is such a strange concept. For those that occupy their minds on statements like that I often find that there should be a little more focus on what's in the frame and not what's in the camera. It's okay to get excited about technology. It's even okay to prefer a brand. I'm a camera nerd too. But I'm only a camera nerd to serve the purpose of the captured frame.
 
Phil Holland said:
I will say this crazed mindset that "my camera is better than your camera" is such a strange concept. For those that occupy their minds on statements like that I often find that there should be a little more focus on what's in the frame and not what's in the camera. It's okay to get excited about technology. It's even okay to prefer a brand. I'm a camera nerd too. But I'm only a camera nerd to serve the purpose of the captured frame.
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I agree 100%.
 
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