Canon mount for the RED ONE...

[Adam Levins]

I am not sure the "Video Break Out Box" which is ET's one bit of kit that has ANY electronic components in it give them the know how to make a Smart Canon mount.

Birger has been making mounts for years and has PROVEN he can do it.

What I am saying is I like ET's stuff but it is 99% camera support. I predict a VERY long road before they get anywhere near where Eric is with the Birger right now..

 

[Lars Xang]

One half of Element-Technica is Stephen Pizzo, who did all the electro-mechanical work for Wescam/Pictorvision - I think they will be fine -

 

[Mark Thorpe]

I'll go for ET without batting an eye lid. They shipped their orders on time and when I found that I had an older generation of their EVF mount they replaced it and shipped it to me FOC. That kinda client care gets my vote hands down.

To be included in the short list as mentioned by Jim is also something to be proud of by all those mentioned.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Adam Levins]

One half of Element-Technica is Stephen Pizzo, who did all the electro-mechanical work for Wescam/Pictorvision - I think they will be fine -

Ah... I did not know that.

 

[Joe Vinson]

I sort of get this feeling like there's some nepotism between Red and Element Technica.

Not exactly sure why you feel this way...

Well, in all fairness... how many third-party companies have their products in the official RED store?

 

[Michael Hastings]

It is in everyone's best interests that accessories come out as quickly as possible, as inexpensively as possible and don't blow up the camera!
Jim

Jim:

I have to take some responsibility for that. It was an unlikely confluence of circumstances. Erik had a problem, but it wasn't clear at the time that one source was the mount instantaneously overdrawing the power circuit, because he had been running it fine for a couple days..

Ldill (one of my customers) had a Thursday deadline on a $150K cost production trip to Africa, and I had a less important deadline for the same weekend - while Erik's test camera was in transit back from RED. We were in line to be beta testers anyway, so I/we pushed Erik to get a couple mounts out. In hindsight if he had even another day or two the problem would have been discovered before ANY mounts had been sent out.

So, along the lines of Jay's post, I would feel very badly if OUR rushing Birger created a permanent issue with either RED or Birger's customers.

I have been telling everyone that will listen that RED represents the biggest thing in underwater photography since the Nikonos back in the sixties. Since then U/W still photographers have always had reasonable cost access to totally professional high level imaging. Yet the motion picture guys were stuck with inferior methods: 8mm, 16mm, standard def video, because 35mm film was just too expensive except for Hollywood budget films. Even High def wasn't quite there.

RED gets us into the 35mm quality range but it is the combination with modern still lenses (both Canon and Nikon) that makes it accessible also to semi pro U/W shooters, documentary types, and even high level amateurs because the internal motorized focus and iris eliminates the need for expensive gearing, and more importantly, means you can instantly change lenses (say from a superwide to a 180 macro) with no change in controls.

Thanks for putting more focus on this - AquaVideo is committed to supporting ALL lens types - but the sooner we get smart mounts, the sooner it helps some of our high level customers AND becomes feasible for the much larger number of second tier customers.

 

[Andrew M.]

We did mention two ways to hook-up the mount on RED.

One way is to put it on top of adjustable original RED PL mount, for Canon it has to be indented lower, the ring have to have depression so it will be placed bit closer to the sensor.

Second is to remove the PL mount completly and replace it with the adjustable assambly.

There is the third option I see.

It is to take the middle adjustable part out, together with very front of RED PL ring and replace the adjustable part with bit shorter adjustable part. This way the base of adjustable part, the one attached to the base of the sensor with 4 screws will not be removed. This would be nice middle route compromise.

As to the i/cable, as Michael suggested cutting it at 1/4" difference at the end and putting on the very end tight (not shrink tube) of 1/2" long would fix the i/ cable problem.

Process should be approved by RED with good instructional video.

 

[Erik Widding]

I said that anything ahead of the adjustable mount is safe. I did NOT say that nothing else would get certified, but we want to work closely with partners to provide a solution without blowing up our camera and having us pay to fix it.

Having said that, we are working more closely now with 3rd parties in an effort to make everyone happy, especially our customers.

We continue to work with Birger to get that mount compatible with our system. I am sure we will get there.

I appreciate the clear public statement of position.

 

[Paul Leeming]

If anyone is going to purchase an electronic Canon EF mount, I would plead with you to make sure you purchase Birger's / Erik's mount.

The man has put his heart and soul into this project for over a year and deserves our support.

For the record: I do not know Erik very well, and this is not me shilling for him.. I am simply a REDuser who has followed his incredible journey for a long time now, and I feel it would be a terrible thing for his project to fail so close to completion.

Other's may have a mount amoung other products they sell, but this product is Erik's soul focus, and to me, that counts for something.

He's one of us.

Jay

I concur wholeheartedly Jay. ET make some great gear and I have a couple of their products, but Erik has been working with a passion on the EF mount and most of the delays have been to make it continually better. Sure, I'd love to have it months ago but like a fine wine, sometimes it pays to let it mature properly....

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Michael Hastings]

Copy from Birger thread

Copy from Birger thread

It's getting tough to follow the multiple threads, but since it relates to my earlier post I'll copy it here. I have to package up a rental so haven't had time to read all the interim posts, so I'll just post and run. And hope I haven't done something really stupid (and this all gets resolved for the best)

Copy from birger mount thread:
Okay, so now we get to this thread. Again, I don't have much time so I apologize if it steps on anyone's toes.

...Thanks for posting the email... I wish we had seen this. As I have said before, we are trying to work this out... with our customers best interests in mind. We are confident that we can find a resolution, but we absolutely do not think that "shipping before a warranty issue is resolved" is in the best interests of our customers.

This email will not stop our efforts to work with Birger. But we want to be very clear that we have had a major issue the way it stands now. RED paid for the repairs on the 1st problem... but we will not going forward unless a change is made to the mount....

Jim

Jim: I have publicly and privately thanked RED for taking care of that repair; publicly apologized to this thread for using up the freebie:biggrin:, publicly described that I had previous significant experience with warranty issues with Panasonic and explained that it was complicated and time consuming and urged patience, and publicly made VERY clear that I didn't think damage from improper installation should be covered by RED.

But for the people in this thread there a couple of big issues that have never been addressed:

A smart mount for modern Canon/Nikon lenses is important for a variety of reasons, but for many here (not me) it is quite literally the difference between REDONE as a doorstop and REDONE as a viable camera for their situation. The fact that RED had not seen that email, (which was published here in the thread within hours, over a week ago) as you mention, points to one source of frustration for us because even though this is the largest thread on REDUSER in both posts and views, and has been for months, the first post from a RED principal AFTER 7 MONTHS AND OVER 1800 OTHER POSTS, is Jarred's alluding to some other possible future manufacturer.

The other biggie is that just a week or so ago RED announced the somewhat arbitrary delineation of the adjuster as the no man's land for warranty purposes - which was a BOMBSHELL - and apparently never communicated before to Erik - or KH or the RED community at large.

It MAY be possible to create a mount that fits both the actual mount AND the required contacts in front of the adjuster, but anybody that adds up the simple FFD numbers knows that it would be VERY tight and the most logical design is to simply remove the whole mount since there isn't really any more dangerous exposure of the cable or the sensor. I and others have asked repeatedly for reasoning on this, since there are several easy solutions to taking care of the i/cable, if that is the concern. And it seems like it needs to be more than just "we're not comfortable with it" as it also has implications for KH FD mount, IMS, etc. as well as there might be good reasons to pull the mount occasionally even if you are not switching mounts. Aside from some mounts with stuck screws it is really pretty easy to remove either just the pl or the whole mount. Because we had the stuck screws we have had it apart in multiple ways and there is even an easy procedure for getting the "stuck screw" pl's off safely.

I quickly read Jay's posts and he makes a bunch of good points, but the warranty thing may need some clarification. I don't think Birger or anyone really wants to void the warranty, nor does anyone with good sense think RED should pay for install or electronic design mistakes. If electronic plug in to the REDONE is the concern it is fully understandable that RED needs to really evaluate that more over time before they can sign off on it. For those that can't wait that could be easily overcome in the interim by powering the mount with a separate battery. But it seems like the kicker is the mount removal issue and I think all of us - smart EF/Nikon, IMS, and just regular RED owners would like some focus on that issue because it would clear up a lot.

It is obvious that there is some tension between Erik and Red, and as a RED customer, I think that that is a shame. ...

.... But Erik (like Red) sort of did some forging through unchartered waters, and, like RED deserves a little love. Would anyone else be trying it if they didn't see the intense desire for this product through the work that Erik is doing? I give him alot of credit, and I'll buy his product if it stands up.

Doc makes some good points.

Jim: If there is a problem between Birger and RED, I don't want it to destroy my relationship with Jarred and you. I just want fairness for all and a working smart mount soon. After I loaned Birger my camera for 3 weeks back in January I began following this closely. In the absence of any REDUSER moderator I became sort of the de facto moderator of this thread and have tried to voice the thoughts and concerns of a number of people that have communicated with me both on the board and off, and tried to clarify the issues for all.

As Jarred said to me "I dont mean to call you out man... you know we love you, ..." and I might add we love your camera. Hundreds of us have been waiting many months for this, and for some of us time is running out to do projects that REQUIRE the smart mount. I know you've been busy (and a little worn out) with build 16. And I have had a LOT more time to think about this mount so I hope as things settle down over there you will consider my/our proposals regarding removing the WHOLE mount and either agree or give us your always insightful reasons as to why not.

 

[Thor Wixom]

Jim seems happy.

Jarred seems happy.

Erik seems happy.

I'm happy.

-Thor

 

[percy fung]

Any view on the BNCR mount by Visual Product

 

[George A.]

No, but I'm using the BNCR mount made by Doug.

I would definitely recommend it! Solid, well-built, excellent unit. It costs only $500, but you have to find your own spare BNCR camera mount (you can get them on eBay from time to time).

Doug is a great guy so, all in all, I say definitely look into it if you want a BNCR mount on your RED.

 

[Victor Noir]

Follow Focus Gears the Next Big Question?

Follow Focus Gears the Next Big Question?

What are people doing about having their lenses geared?

Since it's been made public that there are multiple entities pursuing the fabled EF mount, are there also entities anyone knows of (and would recommend) which provide gearing solutions (temporary or permanent) for follow focus attachment....

It seems once we're all done staring at, and salivating over, our EF mounts, that will be the next question on many minds... or at least mine.

Redrock Micro comes to mind... others?

 

[Joe Vinson]

I hope we don't have to duplicate everything between this thread and The Other Thread, but in case Jim reads this one more thoroughly, this one is worth repeating:

Jim, I reread my email to our common customers from last week, and I must say am disappointed with some of my choices. I could have communicated what I needed to without being disrespectful to you or your company. I thank you for stating publicly that you are comitted to working with my company despite the lack of respect that I showed you. You did not ask for an apology, but I feel, rightfully deserve one. I am truly sorry.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

What are people doing about having their lenses geared?

Since it's been made public that there are multiple entities pursuing the fabled EF mount, are there also entities anyone knows of (and would recommend) which provide gearing solutions (temporary or permanent) for follow focus attachment....

It seems once we're all done staring at, and salivating over, our EF mounts, that will be the next question on many minds... or at least mine.

Redrock Micro comes to mind... others?

Just in case you missed something with the Birger mount, the mount controls the focus and iris electronically through a teathered cable or a wireless bluetooth remote making gearing the lens unnecessary--that's why we are so excited for it to come into being.

The only gearing you would need to do would be for the zoom if you want that on a knob or for the eventual breathing compensation.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Well, in all fairness... how many third-party companies have their products in the official RED store?

It seems to me that speaks very favorably about ET's products, doesn't it? About the trust that the two companies have built? I *want* that kind of assurance backing the product that I buy, not this series of lapsed communications and blatant indifference towards customer care that has characterized the Birger saga.

I've ordered 3 rounds of ET products for my cameras. ET processes orders. ET returns phone calls. ET rolls out new products. What is not to like?

If we weren't all so desperate for a Canon mount, we would have *never ever ever* put up with the kind of customer service that Erik has provided. Since it appeared to be a monopoly product, we were held hostage to a very uncertain and uncomfortable process.

I understand that this product development is revolutionary and a game-changer and all of that -- but other companies are doing the same damn thing, Redrock with its mattebox, Viewfactor with its follow focus and Mirus, Action-cam with its RED steady rig...the list goes on and on.

These are all small companies made up of a handful of folks. I've had dealings and transactions with many of them, and bar none, this has been, by far, the WORST.

I have already cancelled my order via e-mail, before this thread ever posted. I'm sure that it will take as long to get my refund as it took to get my order confirmed. If it ever arrives at all.

I am not happy about any of this -- if I had known sooner that ET was working on this, I wouldn't have wasted a millisecond of energy hoping and wishing and chasing after the Birger mount.

I saw the Birger prototype at NAB, and it looks great. But it is not enough to build a revolutionary product, you still have to serve the damn customers!!!!!!!!! Those nagging irritants who help you to pay your bills....

For real customer service and for the quality of the products that ET brings to market, I'd rather pay up and sleep well at night.

 

[Victor Noir]

Thom,

Actually, i wasn't really speaking about the Birger... and while I did know it controls iris functions (the missing link with EF for so long) I would still want to be able to control focus manually anyway.

What, for example, are the P+S Technik'ers going to do along these lines?

 

[Eddie]

To each his own...

if you think that ET has a working 1500$ smart mount comming up in a month or two thats your bet.

In my book Erik is a milestone, however open development was not a good choice for him, since nobody has any idea about the technology he is applying and just "want something that works, NOW!".

The whole birger thread is one big "where is it?" "how long?" "why didn´t you pick up the phone!" "i sent you an email, asking why it isn´t available, why didn´t you respond?" "... but you promised"
Complaints are not really constructive developement and I´d suggest all the complainers contemplate that Erik will actually be delivering a high-tech industry-changing third-party accesory to a camera which is still more or less in beta. how is this comparable to a cheap mattebox or a 900$ dovetail?

 

[Michael Hastings]

...

I've ordered 3 rounds of ET products for my cameras. ET processes orders. ET returns phone calls. ET rolls out new products. What is not to like?

RE Birger "... I'm sure that it will take as long to get my refund as it took to get my order confirmed. If it ever arrives at all. ..."

Easy... I like ET and their products too but truthfully this is a little different and we "ain't SEEN nothin' yet".

Also, Birger's previous market was government/industrial/scientific where purchase orders, long lead times, and minimal interaction is the norm. ET's been in this market a long time and knows a little better how to deal with it. In fairness, the change in the PL mount AFTER Birger took orders was a significant alteration/setback yet Erik had to go through the delay/redesign in full, unrelenting public view. Whatever ET has done, they got to do with full knowledge of the other developments AND without ANY public pressure.

I have confidence in ET and look forward to it - I know a few of my customers will choose ET for sure and if it's price/performance is better I may get one too. Many of your points about birger are well taken but some of it is over the top. Criticize Birger all you want for the inability to handhold 200 customers through the delays - I'm sure Erik would accept that. But Birger has always offered the refund and only a few canceled and there has never been ANY indication of a problem with that, so I think to impugn his financial integrity is unfair, and given no evidence, inappropriate on this forum.

I would still want to be able to control focus manually anyway.

Victor, I think you are missing one of the keys. Manual focus on EF lenses typically isn't very smooth BECAUSE of the motors and they have very short focus throw, so no matter what gearing you do it isn't likely to be very slick. ANY (ET, Birger, whatever) smart mount offers the ability to increase focus throw to 360 degrees (or more) and can be very smooth as Birger demonstrated at NAB. That's the other half of why we are all so excited/anxious. Iris control AND a free and smoother follow focus.