Canon mount for the RED ONE...

[Joe Vinson]

The way to avoid this expansion of the objects while changing focus, is to zoom out a bit when changing the focal plane like this. You can pre program it on Birger mount right now for particular shot, and by pressing two buttons, one for pre-programmed change of focus and the second for pre programmed change of zoom you can cancel breathing completely. This programming will work now only with particular shot using dynamic ramp slope programming on Birger mount.

In the future Erik said he will try to set the internal table or he could make it user programmable one in simplest form, so once you select the lenses that you want to install on the mount for the shot and you start changing the focus, the Birger mount will automatically change the zoom a bit to compensate for the breathing.

Basically you will not have any breathing at all, zero!

Er, just to avoid some confusion, it's my understanding that the "breathing compensation" feature has been talked about as something that might be technically possible somewhere down the line, but you make it sound like it will be ready to go out of the box. For one thing, you would need an add-on geared lens motor, since there are no internal motors for components for zoom in SLR lenses. For another thing, Erik still has knobs, remotes and Nikon mounts to design, and by the time all that gets done, humans will have evolved to control focus with our minds. :tongue:

Honestly, I've never thought we'd see breathing compensation come to fruition for several reasons:

• Many Canon still lenses (especially the L-series, I've heard) have decent, almost negligible breathing.
• It would take a monumental effort to time the zoom and focus just right. Even a small discrepancy would be jarring and much more distracting that breathing alone.
• Lots of folks don't care that much about breathing, and you can get a pretty good fix with a simple scale in post.

 

[Andrew M.]

It is very difficult to figure out rump up scale change in post if focus was driven manually.
Once both are done electronically and you know the slope of change it is much easier to do.

Did you try to compensate in post for it? Try it, if focus was driven by hand without known rate of change it is very tricky.

Also if you have any patterns or sharp adages in the frame the slow scaling in post produces this ugly artefacts cavitations or I call it edge rolling effect.
Breathing of most Canon DLSR lenses is unacceptable for big screen without correction, but for HD material with a bit of zoom help it may look quite professional.
Sure nothing beats electronic compensation or you have to pay $$.$$$ to get cine lenses.

 

[Thor Wixom]

I did some tests on breathing with the popular Canon zooms, and I posted the results. This was a while ago.

I shot them through a Brevis adapter to an HVX200.

I'll dig up the post if anyone is interested.

-Thor

 

[Joe Vinson]

I did some tests on breathing with the popular Canon zooms, and I posted the results. This was a while ago.

I shot them through a Brevis adapter to an HVX200.

I'll dig up the post if anyone is interested.

-Thor

Here's the thread.

Thanks for putting that together, Thor. I think the Canon SLRs handle themselves pretty well, especially for being zooms. (Might want to shy away from the higher focal lengths, though.) The L-series primes should be even better.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Element Technica = Customer Support

Element Technica = Customer Support

Someone said it earlier in a post and just wanted to reiterate my experience with ET. Bought many of their products and met both Stephen and Hector. They delivered every time on time. And only one item i DON'T have is their new cheese stick---Having full trust in these guys i paid in advance---AND was told that it would not be complete for a while......what I like about ET is that they give you a timetable and then follow through with it.

I've made numerous phone calls to ET and EVERY time they pick up the phone---and yes, they are a small shop and I think Stephen spends a great deal of his day just seeing customers at the shop and talking to us on the phone.

Can't say enough about this company's work ethic and CUSTOMER SERVICE---and of course the QUALITY products they make.

Good luck ET.....

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

True to their word, Birger has cancelled my order and promised to deliver a refund next week. Thank you, Erik and Amy, for your prompt response, and I apologize if I mis-characterized your operation, in its current incarnation. Thor is correct that you have made great strides in the customer service department, since the beginning.

If the tide turns in your favor and the early adopters show the results that we all long for with the mount, the lenses, and RED, then the one other thing that will restore my faith in possibly renewing my order is this level of customer service--fast, efficient, and reliable. I wish you both the best and hope that this works in you favor.

 

[David Nardini]

Electronic circuitry can zoom in a bit or zoom out to automatically compensate for the breathing ...

How so ? Zoom control on Canon lenses is manual only ...

And my request for only an aperture control was only to have a simple working solution now instead of months down the road.....

101% agree with you ... by now we could have been working with v1, could have sorted all this mount stuff, Erik could have some $ in the bank, and the 'clever' stuff could be part of the v2 mount, for those that want all the wizzz bang stuff ...

 

[ericyoung]

How so ? Zoom control on Canon lenses is manual only...

Viewfactor has some future expansion socketry which they have mentioned. It could possibly be driven by Birger to drive a zoom motor to drive the zoom ring (clamp on drive ring obviously required).

 

[Andrew M.]

You are forgetting that Birger has long history with Canon mount to C-mount driven by RS232 port from laptop.

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

Laptop since few years could be used to drive Birger mount. You have access to all commands and you can design your own slopes and dependency between zoom, aperture and focus.
When the idea of incorporating laptop design in to the internal limited feature dedicated mount raised here on this forum Birger had 85% of the mount done. He just had to gather all bits and pieces he had for laptop driven Canon mount and squeeze it in to the firmware based control.

So the actual work on Birger Canon mount is not just several month or so , it is more like 3 years of experience.

 

[David Nardini]

You are forgetting that Birger has long history with Canon mount to C-mount driven by RS232 port from laptop.

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=ef232_home

Laptop since few years could be used to drive Birger mount. You have access to all commands and you can design your own slopes and dependency between zoom, aperture and focus.
When the idea of incorporating laptop design in to the internal limited feature dedicated mount raised here on this forum Birger had 85% of the mount done. He just had to gather all bits and pieces he had for laptop driven Canon mount and squeeze it in to the firmware based control.

So the actual work on Birger Canon mount is not just several month or so , it is more like 3 years of experience.

I hear you ... and yes, RS232 driven 'clever stuff' may indeed be the case. The fact still remains that we are 3 + 1 year down the line and we still cannot control the most basic of things ... Canon EF aperture ! on a RED, let alone the rest.

I cannot help but think that some folk are trying to run before they can walk ... :sad:

 

[Michael Hastings]

I think the core of Andrew's point is that all canon ef lenses have precision motors which constantly feed back precise data on position and that data is already being captured by the Birger EF mount via software that has been in development and use for 6 or 7 years and that opens up all kinds of capabilities, both on the editing/graphics/vfx software side and in add on hardware for breathing compensation, motion control, etc.

run before walk? Yes, but talking about this is better than beating our heads against the wall thinking about those 200 workable mounts sitting on a shelf.

 

[Peter Majtan]

For me - these are the two ONLY reasons I didn't buy yet the Red One (in order of priority):

A) That fact that I can't put down the $17.5K and get my camera within a week or two... (the dredged wait-list)

B) Availability of Canon mount

I have already requested quote from Birger - and looks like the best option for me right now. Also due to the A) and am not in a hurry for the B). I have my money aside both both...

 

[Andrew M.]

I think the core of Andrew's point is that all canon ef lenses have precision motors which constantly feed back precise data on position and that data is already being captured by the Birger EF mount via software that has been in development and use for 6 or 7 years and that opens up all kinds of capabilities, both on the editing/graphics/vfx software side and in add on hardware for breathing compensation, motion control, etc.

run before walk? Yes, but talking about this is better than beating our heads against the wall thinking about those 200 workable mounts sitting on a shelf.

Precisely, we have working Beta from Birger, not even Alpha or prototype, it is Beta and already shooting out there the features.
I didn't know that they have RS232 Canon since 6-7 years!!
So far there was only one hiccup with power in Birger Beta mount. I was bit surprised since it is very easy part of design but seeing RED screwing up on phantom power almost in the identical way there must be something about these geniuses kids like Erik and whoever designs RED electronics, that they can design 8 core CPUs but when it comes to power they have to ask his father how to do it.
I guess here is digital age, if they could they will make Power Supplies sending ones and zeros instead of current or voltage.


Peter, if you make this stuff for us beautifull we will buy you Birger Canon mount and more, don't wary. You can put just 1,750 as a down for RED.
You don't need the whole amount.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Andrew - Your stuff will rock - I am sure. I will work on it until it does...

And for me it is not about putting down the deposit. I have already secured business loan for Red-One fully equipped and the upgrade to Epic. But even if I put down ALL the money now - I would still have to wait until next year for the camera. It might just make sense to buy the Epic directly... Our primary cameras are still going to be Scarlets. The Epic will be only used for VIP commercials and special client request. Not a everyday workhorse...

 

[Andrew M.]

Very smart Peter, get experiance with Scarlet and go all the way to Epic, very smart.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

it would be good to see an open statement from et on their plans, timelines, approx costs etc just to cull the speculation...

 

[Prem Edpuganti]

when you have to jump from one object in far focal plane to the other object in your frame, closer to the camera, the picture in the background expands on most lenses

Andrew:

I am trying to understand what breathing is. In some other post I read it as the inhaling or exhaling of barrel as the elements are moved for focus or zoom. I never understood why it is bad except for cleanliness and protection. Can you please confirm what lens breathing generally refers to.

Thanks.

 

[Joe Vinson]

Can you please confirm what lens breathing generally refers to.

For the purposes of our discussion, it's the slight 'zoom' effect that happens when a lens changes focus, generally considered a negative thing. Most noticeable during static rack focus shots. Many cinema lenses are engineered at great expense to minimize breathing. SLR lenses, being designed for still photography, tend to breath more.

 

[Aron Cohen]

i thought it was when you pull focus it zooms a tiny bit in and out. as far as i know it's told to be a big problem with lenses in cinematography and video production, but when it comes to photography, i personally never find it annoying because you can zoom a bit in or out.

 

[Ryan Sims]

Breathing is Bad

Breathing is Bad

Trust me. Breathing is Bad. An AC is constantly adjusting for focus in every shot. If the Actor moves an inch, the AC adjusts the lens. Any zooming in and out will be distracting. If you think breathing is OK, you have never worked as or with a real AC(assistant cameraman).