Canon EOS R5 with 8K video! No crop!

[Kenneth C Merrill]

As someone who invested in a Panasonic S1H a year ago, I was a little nervous I would have some buyers remorse after the Canon announcement today, but I'm still totally happy with where I'm at. Truth is, I have absolutely zero need for 8K. The 8K raw in the R5 will be unworkable for almost everyone who is in that market segment anyway. I'd much rather stick with 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 (if I need better, I'll just shoot with my Arri). And on that level the R5 is a step DOWN compared to the S1H. Less dynamic range (C-log loses against V-log). 30 minute recording limit. And no anamorphic option (though truthfully I don't use mine that much).

There's always going to be a more sexy camera out there. The question is, does your camera serve your needs? Most of the time unless you're working with a dinosaur or stepping into new kinds of work, the answer will be "yes."

 

[Phil Holland]

To the criticism of the overheating potential I am equally if not more impressed that Canon is at least informing people now about it. Commendable transparency really.

Lights, Camera speeds, Roll Sound, Action! *counts in head to 180 seconds* Cut! Alright, check the gate, fan down the cam, Coffee! Where's my coffee! Don't ever film in Arizona, and happy days

I'm not worried about it. If you're showing up to a job and hoping this to be a commercial workhorse and interested in Canon, they have camera options for you with their C300 and C500 series which have cooling systems.

Somewhere between people bitching about camera boot time and waiting for a camera to physically cool down enough to even roll is people freaking out thinking this does things that far more robust cameras do not.

Interestingly, if you want the 8K C300 that is used in Canon Japan it's about $92K for a Super 35mm version and that is not in a shooting configuration. They don't even sell that here in the states as far as I know. The other 8K cameras over there are similar except for that one Sony broadcast model, which you can get here. But that's also a six figure commitment.

Meanwhile we've had cellphones already that shoot 8K and I didn't hear many Helium or Monstro owners freaking out because it's obviously a large smidge off the quality mark for professional work.


TL;DR: Never panic when there's a new camera announced. There's a reason to test everything and figure out what they can and can't do. Even now with Canon's transparency, people will buy the camera and be pissed off they can't roll for an hour even though they are literally telling you you likely shouldn't be rolling for more than a couple minutes at a time. Similarly in the past in the high end space we had Sony market the F65 as an 8K camera, a camera I actually liked as well, but it was not an 8K camera at all. Shockingly I'm surprised they regained presence in the motion picture industry after that, but it took 3 camera generations to do so.


On the topic of what really excites me about the R5. When I need to grab a quick shot in 8K likely on a Monstro shoot this year, I can see if I can inter cut the material. The highlight roll-off and dynamic range is of a similar feel to the 1DX MK III, so don't freaking clip whatsoever. Super pumped about the autofocus. It's building on what's good on the 1DX's newest advancements. Their new in camera IBIS with lens stabilization changes the game for low light handheld photography IMO. Likely will help for jittery handheld video peeps to, but with that signature motion that comes with stabilizing close to axis. Actually pairs well resolution-wise with my Monstro, a bit different than my other 8K+ stills cameras here. 20fps stills are cool. I can totally see timelapsers hitting this bad boy up too.

I'll let you know when i pick one up. Most of the stills you see me post especially of my camera setups are mostly from my 5DsR and that will be my baselines comparison to how the R5 performs on a still image level. Actually hoping for lower noise floor and more dynamic range really.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Kenneth, you make some good points there. I, too, was wondering if Panasonic users would feel that way. Both the S1H and the R5 make the same mistake: 30fps limit on the maximum resolution. (Komodo can be forgiven for 'only' 40fps). I'm not a fan of either camera, but that's neither here nor there.

All of my cameras are superseded models, and the newest camera I own was released in 2015. Some people are still shooting with an M9, which came out in 2009 - you try finding one at a good price today. In fact I can't find a single one on eBay Australia. The M9 is arguably the only digital camera that has this following, but still, it's interesting to see.

I'm hoping that the initial excitement for these new hybrid cameras will lead some photographers to dump their old gear for cheap. I doubt it, though. But if I see a Leica SL for AU$2,000 I might be tempted to snap it up. Maybe.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

Karim, it's funny you should bring up Leica because I'm hoping the new M announcement next week drops the price on the M10 just a little! haha

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

It is good to see R5 is out with specs. Pretty impressive for under $4K. In the old days we used to record 10-20 minutes on film or Beta or DVCPRO 50. Very solid move from Canon, great camera . On my list, for sure.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Maby the temperature would be greatly reduced if you could record to an atomos recorder instead. I dont know if exports raw. But I would imagien it would work. Its fun to se canon starting making interesting gear for a change.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Has anybody got official max record times before overheating for the R6?

 

[Phil Holland]

Has anybody got official max record times before overheating for the R6?

The screen grabs above are from the Canon's testing and literature. Doesn't get more official than that. That said, due to the variety of variable regarding temperature and humidity they have stipulated "approx." which means you'll get a bit more or less depending on a load of variables.

Maby the temperature would be greatly reduced if you could record to an atomos recorder instead. I dont know if exports raw. But I would imagien it would work. Its fun to se canon starting making interesting gear for a change.

What you'll see in the short term, perhaps even available before the year is over depending on the tinkerer who chooses this adventure, but probably more of a January/March 2021 thing is somebody producing either a modification service in tandem with some sort of fan module cooler thingy. That will be largely contingent on if the demand is there, if the design can be hacked relatively easily to produce a notable amount of airflow, or if the cooling method requires a heavier modification "getting in there and not breaking it" sort of things. Based on the fact that Canon didn't make this accessory themselves, I'm guessing it's a smidge harder than it looks.

I'd expect that mod/module to cost a bit of coin if it works well enough to be worth while. The tricky thing is bypassing the sensors in the camera as well as not inducing an image quality related issue to burning that silicon too much. It needs to physically cool down or you'll simply destroy the sensor itself, perhaps boards as well. I'm sure somebody code-wise will find a way to skirt around the sensors and timers and brick a camera within a few months of it being out.

There's some obvious ways to get into the body and push air through, but power, sound, and certainly ruining any semblance of weather sealing to have an exhaust will be necessary. Then dust might come into play and will need to be filtered for sure.

I think the first real tests of running it under controlled temperature conditions will be to see if any of this worth doing. The thing might actually just melt after rolling for an hour even in a cooled situation. Don't worry, you'll see some sort of YouTube experiment of "I froze the R5 to try to record longer" and then they'll discover all the reasons why that is not the correct way to do it.

This does remind me a lot of the early 5D MK II days where voiding your warranty for some became a cheap enough proposition to do things like PL mount, cooling, etc. Might get you back up in the $8-$15K range to have the camera and mod, that's a bit of commitment for something you can't send in for repair.

We'll see. I'm using it mainly for stills, rarely for motion, but I will certainly work within the confines of the warranty when I roll. Bricked cameras very rarely earn me income.

 

[Phil Holland]

Oh and while I'm here before nap time.

In case you missed my instagram post about getting home after filming and finding an inbox of questions, curiosity, and sheer rage regarind the R5.

Here's data that will be useful for you and might even shock you to an extent. A lot of people looking at the R5 haven't seen big boy data rates before, and that's been part of what I've been messaged about. We're sort of used to getting an hour of 8K per 1TB or 6K at a lower compression ratio, similar to Komodo and Dragon 6K on DSMC2 Unified cams.


This is true for 23.98 through 29.97 frame rates as they adjust the data rate to get there.

Canon RAW 12-bit 8K = 325MB/s
Canon ALL-I 8K H.265 10-bit = 162.5MB/s
Canon IPB 8K H.265 8-bit = 85MB/s

EOSHD posted CVP's data and I have the table here as well. So that's basically 51 minutes of 8K per 1TB if filming RAW. And there's compression levels beyond that to explore. I'll dive deeper into the codec once I get the camera, but that's about a 4:1 ratio probably. Might actually be more than that depending on what they are doing with the data. Hard to know without a white sheet about it.

The later two codecs are 10-bit and 8-bit C-Log in H.265 with 4:2:2 chroma sub-sampling. Oddly due to the nature of decoding 8K H.265, depending on your hardware setup it might be easier to work with the chunkier RAW versus log or not. Just depends and depends on the software as well.

Based on those data rates and my testing of CFexpress cards, looks like even 64GB cards will work, though that's not a lot of role time at a 3 minutes per card.

Really interesting to see both the positive and negative response to having a RAW format from my perspective. Not just for 8K, but some of this conversation happened for many when the 5.7K C500 MKII and 1DX MKIII dropped. In the realm of digital cinema cameras, literally can't live without it for my typical workflows no matter what camera I'm using.

I'll reiterate what I've been saying for years however. It will be tricky for data rates at cinema-grade acquisition to get lower, however delivery codecs will evolve and have been in the other direction. At some point people need to make that call of if they want the quality they will have to deal the data footprint and data rates commitments. RED's really taken advantage of having variable compression ratios on their RAW format relating to both singular compression and uncompressed workflows out there. And I do think BRAW was a good move for BMD to keep their file sizes down with the partial debayer as the audience for cameras in their price range typically are dealing with the same issues that the Canon shooters just woke up to.

This impact truly is part of the equation of cameras getting more capable and becoming less expensive as new audiences are attracted to more demanding tools.

FYI, part of the equation for the camera being cooled btw, is the heat of the media contributing to the fire while rolling.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

The screen grabs above are from the Canon's testing and literature. Doesn't get more official than that. That said, due to the variety of variable regarding temperature and humidity they have stipulated "approx." which means you'll get a bit more or less depending on a load of variables.

Yeah, but I assume those grabs are figures for the R5. Do you have the same details for the R6?

 

[Emir Aksay]

I think they'll get it right with R5 mk3

 

[Mike P.]

I think they'll get it right with R5 mk3

Lol!

Is it confirmed that those pages are Canon literature? I was under the impression they were CVP's/not manufacturer official. I'm willing to bet replacing the stock thermal goop/pad with something decent will reduce temps by ~5c, which would likely get longer rec times (but void your warranty, and not be a realistic solution). LTT videos can't come soon enough.

And not get too conspiracy theoryish, but if it's as bad as it sounds, then that's the other shoe dropping on the R5 and how Canon is comfortable releasing it at <$4k whilst having specs better than even their cinema line. I expect an 8k ~$15k camera inbound... C400 or something? Or an "R5C" version?

Lastly, storage is cheap these days and 8k 4:1 no longer seems scary. Case in point, CFE cards are still *less than half* the price of REDmags in similar capacities, so getting a couple 1tbs (that will be useable on a slew of devices moving forward) isn't as bad as what RED have gotten us used to. Plus the only codec that needs CFE is 8k raw... SD cards for 8k 10bit 422 are cheap-cheap by comparison. My concern is more about playback performance in the short-term; both 8k raw and 265 likely require transcoding for my machines, which I'm totally over...

...I mean, that's besides the overheating limit. That's the biggest blow-out from a functionality point of view. If it was limited to just 20min takes, it'd still be great for $4k. But those numbers are saying from cold boot you get 20mins, then you cool down for 10mins and get ~3~5mins more depending on ambient temps... and basically the ambiguity of continuous record time makes it a lot less functional in production. I'm not sure how you can shoot anything important as you can't even plan around cool down periods, since they're ambiguous/vague.

OR maybe this is all pre-production/initial numbers and they'll drop a firmware that alleviates the issue entirely? That's still a possibility, right? Maybe? *fingers crossed*

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

In early days of RED people were forced to have atleast one back up body. In case of the R5, one can buy 2 bodies and ensure that everything is covered. Just a bit of jugglery in noting down sequence of shots or may be pulling a card and putting in another body. If people could go through the pain of Magic Lantern, then they can do anything to make the R5 work even if it heats up. Guess a larger body like a Canon 1 DXII/III would have been better in containing the heat generated

 

[Emir Aksay]

In early days of RED people were forced to have atleast one back up body. In case of the R5, one can buy 2 bodies and ensure that everything is covered. Just a bit of jugglery in noting down sequence of shots or may be pulling a card and putting in another body. If people could go through the pain of Magic Lantern, then they can do anything to make the R5 work even if it heats up. Guess a larger body like a Canon 1 DXII/III would have been better in containing the heat generated

Buying a backup body is not the same as buying 2 bodies to hot swap them during a shoot, you've gotta switch lenses, mics, cf cards or whatever it uses, and even then you can film 20 mins then switch to the other cam and only shoot 8mins . I was thinking of buying this and selling my A73 for docu work but that temprature thing is a no no during work. Maybe for student films it might be ok, you can take a break for 20 mins then film 8 minutes more

 

[Michael Hastings]

Looks like 512gb cards will be the sweet spot since you can't record longer anyway.

I think most small and medium level productions (depends on your definition but suspect that covers more than 50% of people on this site), will be able to deal with the temp/recording time issues - and 8K, RF lens support, excellent AF, IBIS and most of all $3899 vs $54,500 will be incentive to deal with it.

Highest level productions dealt with 1000 foot 10 minute record times for 100 years. I know they could quick change but we all know there is a LOT of camera off time on sets. Obviously, not ideal to shut down for cooling but again $3899 vs $54,500.

And here's the solution: for 1/5 the price of a Monstro you could have 3 bodies on hand loaded and ready to go with no downtime.

A big thing to consider on expensive cameras is, for example, that Monstro owners are probably going to lose $20-30K in value or more in the next year or so. R5 owners will prob lose $1500 in value at most and can't lose more than $3899. Not to mention the annual insurance costs on $54500, or the time value of money. The insurance cost on a Monstro with a monitor and a few batteries would pay for the R5 in about two years. 12% interest cost for a single year on a Monstro package would pay for two R5s.

Again, I will be purchasing a Komodo as well because it has some unique abilities and I think it will pay for itself, but it will be foolish to ignore how disruptive the R5 will be in a covid/postCovid world.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Atomos doesn’t do 8k or raw yet. Only 10bit 4k proress.
http://https://indieshooter.com/atomos-records-4k-10-bit-422-prores-or-dnx-from-the-canon-eos-r5-and-eos-r6/?utm_source=Endusers&utm_campaign=a411eb9092-HDSLR_Shooter_News_4_18_144_17_2014_COPY_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_14a3cbe059-a411eb9092-33669489

 

[Bruce Allen]

Seems like a lot of you guys don't remember when Soderbergh was sticking ice packs on his RED ONE for Che

I'll wait to see what Sony announces though! By that time we'll also know what the rolling shutter is like in the various modes for the R5. If it's sub-30ms I'm down for the 8K.

Also, I am sure the 120p mode will be low rolling shutter (by necessity it should be around 8ms max because it has to shoot 120 FPS, right?) but would also like to see what image quality is like. Although I don't think we need pristine 4K. If it has as much actual resolution and picture quality as an Alexa Mini running in high speed mode it would be great for 99% of work.

If Canon had offered 4K 60p and 120p raw modes I'd have jumped on the R5. Even though it'll probably be a little line-skipped - my 5D Mk2 with magic lantern had line skipped raw and it was still a ton of fun.

But yeah... Sony with that HDR sensor and probably 4.8K raw, better cooling, better viewfinder, probably matching cinema zooms, etc, could have a winner and since I'm not exactly shooting right now I'll wait until the end of July.

Haven't jumped on Komodo. It's not the right use case for me. It's so cheap to rent an Alexa mini in Los Angeles. Komodo is too expensive for a personal camera (that can't also become my #1 stills camera too) but also doesn't really compete with Alexa for paying work for me. I think from the looks of it, the Komodo sensor when scaled up to full frame will be very impressive, so it's promising for future larger RED cameras.

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Michael Hastings]

snip: Seems like a lot of you guys don't remember when Soderbergh was sticking ice packs on his RED ONE for Che

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

Good point. :yesnod: I built the first housing for Steve Gibby's RedOne SN#8 in three days the week after first delivery. Ken Corben and Jim (Jannard) shot some surfing with it and Ken ended up stuffing the housing with bags of frozen peas to keep it cool.:wink5:


Who was it said "may you live in interesting times" - we certainly are.

 

[Mike P.]

Yeah, I mean, the R5 is weather-sealed (aka frozen peas/ice pack ready!) FYI, I seem to recall Jarred or someone saying that it turned out that the R1 wasn't overheating, and that it was some other glitch.

As much as the price compared to Monstro/LF makes buying multiple bodies to swap out every 20mins a possibility, that isn't what I'd consider a solution, so much as a workaround. And it still wouldn't be realistic for most shooting situations (certainly most of what I shoot). And who's to say you wouldn't end up having to swap out every ~3~5mins after that first 20min roll from cold boot, y'know?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Yeah, I mean, the R5 is weather-sealed (aka frozen peas/ice pack ready!) FYI, I seem to recall Jarred or someone saying that it turned out that the R1 wasn't overheating, and that it was some other glitch.

As much as the price compared to Monstro/LF makes buying multiple bodies to swap out every 20mins a possibility, that isn't what I'd consider a solution, so much as a workaround. And it still wouldn't be realistic for most shooting situations (certainly most of what I shoot). And who's to say you wouldn't end up having to swap out every ~3~5mins after that first 20min roll from cold boot, y'know?

Alright so you buy four.... (they'll be on sale for $2900 next February) :wink5:

Yes a workaround versus the $54K option, but by the same measure multiple 1000foot mags were a workaround for not large enough mags. It comes down to practicality.

Again, I don't see it on big budget features (except for quick shots, alternate angles, or crash cam at 8K that Komodo couldn't do). I bet guys like Soderburgh and others that like to try new things will find a use. (Particularly once they see the BTS still photographer producing better shots.:wink5

We've had Epic-Ws shut down from overheating (even in aluminum housings) when shooting olympic swimmers in a warm pool and in some tropical waters. But it goes for quite a while - much more than 20 minutes.