Canon 7D looks quite Nice

[Ethan Cooper]

I think many of us who are very much accustomed to shooting solo run and gun style would prefer the 2/3 scarlet for greater ease of nailing focus over it's vDSLR counterparts. If you've used a FF camera such as the 5D you'll learn in a hurry that focus becomes increasingly more difficult the larger your chips become and is more suited for controlled situations.

I do think the image quality of the 2/3 Scarlet (in video mode) will easily surpass that of any vDSLR, but factors such as price and the lure of having "good enough" video with the added benefit of a pretty good still camera might make many think twice about which way they go with their dollars. Couple that with the fact that the Canon's are on the market, beckoning us to give them a try, I think that Red might currently be losing potential market share to the vDSRLs, but I also think that will change once Scarlet is off the drawing board and in consumer's hands.

If all you do is video and you have no interest in stills or no need for a stills camera then the low end Scarlet will most likely be the way to go since it's a fully featured purpose built motion acquiring device. For video people, the second the 2/3 Scarlets hit the market we'll be slapping ourselves on the forehead and chiding ourselves for even considering some of these early vDSLRs as viable options. Problem is, we haven't seen Scarlet yet, haven't been made fully aware of what it offers in terms of image quality, workflow, inputs, and all the subtitle well thought out details that make using a camera a joy instead of a headache. I do think Red can sell a bundle of 2/3" Scarlets but it will take them hitting the streets before many realize, "oh yeah, that's what a decent camera should be like" and get rid of their vDSLRs.

 

[Tanner Field]

If all you do is video and you have no interest in stills or no need for a stills camera then the low end Scarlet will most likely be the way to go since it's a fully featured purpose built motion acquiring device. For video people, the second the 2/3 Scarlets hit the market we'll be slapping ourselves on the forehead and chiding ourselves for even considering some of these early vDSLRs as viable options. Problem is, we haven't seen Scarlet yet, haven't been made fully aware of what it offers in terms of image quality, workflow, inputs, and all the subtitle well thought out details that make using a camera a joy instead of a headache. I do think Red can sell a bundle of 2/3" Scarlets but it will take them hitting the streets before many realize, "oh yeah, that's what a decent camera should be like" and get rid of their vDSLRs.

Exactly what is going through my mind! With the 7D, my interest in Scarlet hasn't gone down at all... but the idea of shooting and continual learning while I wait for Scarlet to come to market, is very appealing to me. For me the 7D is not the end all be all... but merely a camera that's out *now* that gives me acceptable image quality to play with while I wait for Scarlet to hit the streets and my bank account grow enough to match her

 

[Nova Invicta]

Better, smaller, cheaper cameras don’t make better films; better filmmakers do. The digital revolution will probably quadruple the number of feature films shot and edited in a given year, but most of them will still be garbage, just like most of them are now. Look at the first video revolution ten or fifteen years ago – when Beta SP and Hi-band 8 became cheap. What is its legacy? Porno flicks. There won’t be any more artists born in a given year just because movies become cheaper to make. That particular form of insanity is in your DNA, and you either have it or you don’t. Pen and paper are the ultimate low-budget technology, but how many great novels and plays and poems are written every year? I don’t see a stream of Shakespeares being produced just because writing is inexpensive. Emotional clichés still lurk like land mines waiting to destroy you.

 

[Nik Manning]

My main point is that even if scarlet comes out in November at 4K for $4,000 ready to shot there will be more DSLR's coming 6-8 months from that. Which means possibly Canon 5D upgrade with even more functionality for under $3,000. I think the modular RED approach is a good concept but in practice we have ebay and craigslist to resell our equipment. Even now you can still sell your Canon Mark 5D 2 for $2500.

--Edit
For lowend camera purchases. I realize that the higher end scarlet and Epic cameras will benefit from this approach.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

My main point is that even if scarlet comes out in November at 4K for $4,000 ready to shot there will be more DSLR's coming 6-8 months from that. Which means possibly Canon 5D upgrade with even more functionality for under $3,000.

We joked a lot on this forum about how the 3k Scarlet would be great for soccer moms but in the end even the 3k Scarlets are professional motion cameras.

If you are spending money to make money on a shoot there are still some things with the Canon Mark2 and 7D that really get in the way. You always have to watch out for the jello effect and have to be especially careful with long lenses or going handheld. You also have to keep an eye out for compression artifacts. When time is an issue cine lenses (S16 and S35) make things so much smoother. The interchangeable mounts and adjustable backfocus are huge pluses for the Scarlet.

To those who have not had a chance to edit RAW motion footage I can't stress enough how amazing it is. Any shoot that needs a certain color grade, visual effects or green screen work will benefit massively from REDCODE RAW. Somebody find me a frame from the Mark2 or 7D that looks like this:

That being said, there are plenty situations where the Canon Mark2 and 7D will work great and you can't argue with the price. But there is still a huge need for the 3k Scarlet.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

My main point is that even if scarlet comes out in November at 4K for $4,000 ready to shot there will be more DSLR's coming 6-8 months from that. Which means possibly Canon 5D upgrade with even more functionality for under $3,000.

We joked a lot on this forum about how the 3k Scarlet would be great for soccer moms but in the end even the 3k Scarlets are professional motion cameras.

If you are spending money to make money on a shoot there are still some things with the Canon Mark2 and 7D that really get in the way. You always have to watch out for the jello effect and have to be especially careful with long lenses or going handheld. You also have to keep an eye out for compression artifacts. When time is an issue cine lenses (S16 and S35) make things so much smoother. The interchangeable mounts and adjustable backfocus are huge pluses for the Scarlet.

To those who have not had a chance to edit RAW motion footage I can't stress enough how amazing it is. Any shoot that needs a certain color grade, visual effects or green screen work will benefit massively from REDCODE RAW. Somebody find me a frame from the Mark2 or 7D that looks like this:

That being said, there are plenty situations where the Canon Mark2 and 7D will work great and you can't argue with the price. But there is still a huge need for the 3k Scarlet.

 

[Jim Klatt]

I have a strange inclination that Nikon is going to release a RAW, .nef codec for video sometime in the next 6 months...

 

[Robert Craig]

Canon will be at a 3k video in no time probably pretty close to raw codec. Remember what they are building now is primarily a still camera so they have to compromise. I say ditch the 2/3 inch scarlet and make a aps-c at 5k or so and a ff at 7k or so and you've got it licked. No one will be able to compete. for now.... because as we all know so well new technology is exponetial.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I say ditch the 2/3 inch scarlet and make a aps-c at 5k or so and a ff at 7k or so and you've got it licked. No one will be able to compete. for now.... because as we all know so well new technology is exponetial.

Aps-c is very close to S35 so what you are describing is already in the plans for $7k (the S35 Scarlet). All RED would have to do is drop the price $2k and they've got the killer camera you are suggesting.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have a strange inclination that Nikon is going to release a RAW, .nef codec for video sometime in the next 6 months...

It would be the smartest move they could make! They're not bound by an existing market like Canon and Sony, so they would not be undercutting their own product lines. Nikon has nothing to lose and I think will ultimately be the best candidate to compete with Scarlet, maybe even Epic. Unfortunately, I also have a feeling that they just don't see the potential market for what it is and they will miss the boat entirely.

 

[Robert Craig]

Aps-c is very close to S35 so what you are describing is already in the plans for $7k (the S35 Scarlet). All RED would have to do is drop the price $2k and they've got the killer camera you are suggesting.

I meant s35, sorry my mistake I get all mixed up in these terms sometimes :smile:

 

[Robert Craig]

It would be the smartest move they could make! They're not bound by an existing market like Canon and Sony, so they would not be undercutting their own product lines. Nikon has nothing to lose and I think will ultimately be the best candidate to compete with Scarlet, maybe even Epic. Unfortunately, I also have a feeling that they just don't see the potential market for what it is and they will miss the boat entirely.

Profit rules the world thats why RED is so on top of it because they are trying to build the best they can without marketing limitations. :thumbsup::thumbsup: I hope RED stays true to this method otherwise were all doomed :smilielol5:

 

[David Rasberry]

Canon will be at a 3k video in no time probably pretty close to raw codec. Remember what they are building now is primarily a still camera so they have to compromise. I say ditch the 2/3 inch scarlet and make a aps-c at 5k or so and a ff at 7k or so and you've got it licked. No one will be able to compete. for now.... because as we all know so well new technology is exponetial.

The most impressive improvement in the 7D is raw frame rate went up to 8 frames/sec over 4fps for the 5D. If Canon continues to progress at the same rate they will hit 24fps raw in about two years.

 

[Bryce O]

Profit rules the world thats why RED is so on top of it because they are trying to build the best they can without marketing limitations. :thumbsup::thumbsup: I hope RED stays true to this method otherwise were all doomed :smilielol5:

But on the other hand... the reason Canon can develop and release new technology so much faster is because of the fact they "screw" their customer base over by releasing something just-a-little-bit-better every few months to ensure constant and steady profits. What will happen when we all have a Scarlet? Would we need Red for anything else? Will they have money to continue R and D? To give us HDR? What about when 120fps is just too slow?

 

[Matthias Hutter]

My guess is that RAW Video on a DSLR will still need some time. Even without the storage issues (A good motion codec), they at least need to triple their data rate (for 18MP @ 24fps) and speed up the Readout times to, say, a tenth (to be able to read out the whole sensor and to reduce the skew). Not counting overcranking.

Regards, Matt

 

[Justin O'Neill]

But on the other hand... the reason Canon can develop and release new technology so much faster is because of the fact they "screw" their customer base over by releasing something just-a-little-bit-better every few months to ensure constant and steady profits.

I disagree that Canon develops and releases technology much faster then RED.

The improvements in the 7D over the 5D Mark II are the kind that RED has released as free firware upgrades for the RED One.

I'm glad Canon and other camera companies are adding the ability to record video to their DSLRs but I don't know if it qualifies as major technological progress. At least in the D90 and Mark II video seemed more like an after thought and they were just writing to the CF card the stream that was being sent to the LCD. The 7D seems to have a 2nd chip that may be dedicated to video so that would be a step in the right direction.

I think the 7D shoots amazing moving footage for the price but I disagree that Canon releases technology faster then RED.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

If they were doing a full demosaic and downsample from the full chip to make their 1080p or whatever, I'd be suitably impressed. To do that takes a lot of really good design - a fast sensor, good data pipelining, great dsp for the demosaic and downsampling, not to mention image processing, and then the codec. That's non-trivial to do. I know. But they don't do that, so I'm not impressed....

 

[David Rasberry]

If they were doing a full demosaic and downsample from the full chip to make their 1080p or whatever, I'd be suitably impressed. To do that takes a lot of really good design - a fast sensor, good data pipelining, great dsp for the demosaic and downsampling, not to mention image processing, and then the codec. That's non-trivial to do. I know. But they don't do that, so I'm not impressed....

Agreed.:hat:

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Yup, when they start doing it properly, I'll be impressed.

Graeme

 

[Roberto B]

graeme.. the price point is what is impressing the crowd