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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Canon 7D looks quite Nice

Roberto B said:
graeme.. the price point is what is impressing the crowd
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We could do the same and take the same big shortcuts and meet the same price point but we care too much about image quality.
 
Yup, understood they impress on price. And it used to be "how many mp is that?" that impressed people. But there's more to it than that. There's more to image quality than that.
 
Deanan said:
We could do the same and take the same big shortcuts and meet the same price point but we care too much about image quality.
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Exactly. If we'd skipped reading rows on the sensor to drive a 1080p compressed recording, we'd have been rightfully crucified.
 
unfortunately or not they are aware of you.. they awaken.. and will try to kill your plans straight out of the water.. or even before if they can.. the epic ref on the manual controls release proves it.. you should re-think the strategy.. me personally would like to see scarlet to succeed.. you have the technology the knowhow.. but you need to leave the elite market.. cinema is changing.. hollywood w/ more or less vfx will incorporate the changes too.

in few words
you need the crowd to succeed
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Exactly. If we'd skipped reading rows on the sensor to drive a 1080p compressed recording, we'd have been rightfully crucified.
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I agree, and yes rightfully so as RED is positioning itself as a major alternative to film for high end quality cinema productions with the likes of Peter Jackson and Steven Soderberg singing it's praises. The 7D is an (almost) base model stills camera aimed at weekend shooters. The sheer fact that we are even talking about it on here makes it a pretty amazing camera for the money. Debayering, downsampling, compression aside. Image bang for buck=value. I'm sure we will see good shooters push it to amazing heights.
 
Roberto B said:
unfortunately or not they are aware of you.. they awaken.. and will try to kill your plans straight out of the water.. or even before if they can.. the epic ref on the manual controls release proves it.. you should re-think the strategy.. me personally would like to see scarlet to succeed.. you have the technology the knowhow.. but you need to leave the elite market.. cinema is changing.. hollywood w/ more or less vfx will incorporate the changes too.

in few words
you need the crowd to succeed
Click to expand...

Leave the elite market??? Are you mad, Red is about to own the elite market when Epic-X comes out. They are already one of the leaders of high end digital cinema (along with Sony, Panavision, and Panasonic) and they are about to up the ante.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
If they were doing a full demosaic and downsample from the full chip to make their 1080p or whatever, I'd be suitably impressed. To do that takes a lot of really good design - a fast sensor, good data pipelining, great dsp for the demosaic and downsampling, not to mention image processing, and then the codec. That's non-trivial to do. I know. But they don't do that, so I'm not impressed....
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A lot, if not all, of the "pixel binning" nonsense and artifacts of the 5D2 seem to be missing from the few 7D samples I have seen. Do you have some info that we don't, Graeme? It is possible that Canon is dedicating the 2nd Digic processor to downsampling full-sensor frames for video?
 
Brad Webb said:
Leave the elite market??? Are you mad, Red is about to own the elite market when Epic-X comes out. They are already one of the leaders of high end digital cinema (along with Sony, Panavision, and Panasonic) and they are about to up the ante.
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this is a war.. the freeze epic ref on the manual controls release proves it.. it is not result of just a reduser lurker working for canon.. just one man wouldn't have done that.

my post is about scarlet.. don't care about epic.. it is just more another camera for a few bunch of people.. scarlet can be a game changer like red1 has been and epic won't be.

in few words
price point rules
 
Tom, there's a lot of aliasing on the shots I've seen, but no shots of a zone plate yet, so hard to tell exactly what it's doing. I'd suspect it's similar to the 5D2, but we'll know for certain once we can point it at the charts. Be interesting to actually measure the resolution too...
 
if you'd apply your high tech at a competitive price point you'll win the race.. at this point w/ less than 35 will be difficult to get the crowd.. that's your dilemma.. why?

because of the red1 owners.. we all need to understand it is not red who changes.. the world changes.. canon has been changing this part of the world

in few words
price point is changing
(jannard can like it or not but knows this)
 
Roberto B said:
if you'd apply your high tech at a competitive price point you'll win the race..
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Last time I checked the RED One is VERY competitvely priced.

And Scarlet pricing is a moot point until cameras start rolling off of the manufacturing lines.

"Everything changes, count on it." - JJ
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Tom, there's a lot of aliasing on the shots I've seen, but no shots of a zone plate yet, so hard to tell exactly what it's doing. I'd suspect it's similar to the 5D2, but we'll know for certain once we can point it at the charts. Be interesting to actually measure the resolution too...
Click to expand...

Please keep us posted if you get a chance to examine the 7D footage or shoot a zone plate, Graeme. I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts on this camera's methods for sampling the sensor.
 
The Canon web page for 7D sample images has stills at full resolution, 5184x3456 pixels. However, the largest video size they show is 960x540 (1/4 the pixel count of 1080p).
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos7d/

Looking at the available full-HD (original) clips from the 7D from review sites, I'd say that Canon's website choice is justified. The 1080p clips I have seen do not show a satisfying level of resolution. With carefully shot footage that is easy on compression (not much moving in frame) it might be better, but I have not seen any such examples yet.

It's interesting, I played with a 50D (yes, 50D, not 5D2) and a program called EOS_MOVREC which grabs frames via USB to your laptop with the camera in live view mode at a non-fixed framerate, eg 21.5 fps +/- 2 fps, and some odd resolution like 1024x680. It stores MJPEG format. The video was actually quite crisp looking. I haven't looked side-by-side but the 7D video just does not look crisp to me.
 
I'm wondering if the 7D shoots 23.98 or pure 24.
 
"And it used to be "how many mp is that?" that impressed people. But there's more to it than that. There's more to image quality than that."
Be careful when making a statement like that because Red also sold on its camera being 4K and many feel in practise it is not, secondly Canon software has not gone through 20 revisions.
Canon are not selling these cameras to the broadcast or theatrical market those markets have adopted them and its not like any major broadcaster or studio is rushing out to use them either. This market needs to consider the actual practicalities of working on-set which go far beyond just the technology and whether its Raw, H.264, ProRes etc etc many cameramen feel artistic & pratical considerations are being swamped by tecno nerds and are starting to get very vocal about it, in others words "theirs more to to image quality than that"
 
My gut feeling is that if Canon had put an aps-c sized 1080 chip on an XL body with an EF lens mount that would have sent the cat amongst the pigeons.
Couple that body with a solid state recorder via HD-SDI, such as flash xdr, and you've got a bloody good camera and workflow setup.

H264 for acquisition and crap mic connectors? No thank you.

JohnF
 
If Canon wanted to, they could have put out a FF35 or APS-C digital cinema camera on an XL1-style body with 4K and some kind of RAW recorder three or four years ago -- maybe 5 years ago. They have been asleep at the wheel. They'll do it right now, if they have any sense. While the 7D might be nice, it's kind of half-ass, if you ask me. Why not slap a nice big sensor on a real cinema camera and up the data rate for some serious shooting?? As soon as I see 720/60p, to me, that means "half ass." Who shoots 720p?? If people want 60p, they want it at 1080p.

Canon was sitting on the technology for this type of camera probably for half a decade. But yet they kept putting out crummy prosumer video cameras with tiny sensors, to the point where now, Canon really doesn't even have a prosumer HD line to compete against themselves with... which is probably why we are finally seeing them wake up and get with the program. I think Jim deserves some credit for this as well.
 
Canon kept their video offerings consumerish in order to NOT jeopardize their broadcast lens business with the big guns in that industry - Panasonic and Sony.

The 5D has proven to them that their is much more money to be made even if they lose all of their broadcast lens business so I doubt if there is any more hesitation in that regard. That is why I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg from Canon.

I am #206 in line and anxiously awaiting my epic-x, but I think it is silly to believe that Canon won't have something fully competitive in terms of quality, features, and price within the next two years.

I think we willl see one more iteration of the high end full frame DSLR with video and probably a video camera style version with EOS mount by NAB next year. The generation after that will be the big jump.

It will be an interesting couple of years.
 
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