Canon 7D and Nikon RAW 35mm video camera?

[Pawel Achtel]

So the RED One would be worth about $360,000 in canon dollars if you factor in updates... (Assuming you had to buy a new camera for every update!)

Ehhh, it would be called Sony, then :arf:

 

[Craig Meadows]

As much as I love my 5D I would gladly trade it for a Scarlet today if it were available - hint, hint .

 

[Jim Klatt]

I am extremely excited about Nikon's next, as well as Canon's. This is an exciting time.

Sometime next year I will buy one of these cameras, and I am fine with it. Considering how far technology has come, they can have my money if I get what I want.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I am extremely excited about Nikon's next, as well as Canon's. This is an exciting time.

Sometime next year I will buy one of these cameras, and I am fine with it. Considering how far technology has come, they can have my money if I get what I want.

The problem with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic is that they give you just enough features in a camera to satisfy the now. Where as RED is selling cameras for the present and the future.

 

[Roberto B]

the problem with red is that jannard has to have an identical offer first.

the gang is however happy to know the owner of this new company is aware of this thread.. he listens us.. this is the best he can offer to us for the present.

 

[Jannard]

the problem with red is that jannard has to have an identical offer first.

the gang is however happy to know the owner of this new company is aware of this thread.. he listens us.. this is the best he can offer to us for the present.

Last time I looked, neither Canon nor Nikon has a camera that does what the RED ONE does.

Jim

 

[Joseph Ward]

Isn't making movie images harder than still. Apples and Oranges until Scarlet/Epic comes out IMO.

 

[Imran Farouk]

The thing with all those companies vs RED is that their cameras are pick up and go...the RED one takes quite a bit of preperation...I realized this the other day...but it is true...this is the price paid off in order to gain the ability to have such flexability,DSMC RED One...no one I'm sure thought "hmmm video + photography" but now it's becoming common...not main stream but still...

The RED One has offered a lot...The new cams will hopefully remedy this "pick up and go" factor...but in the mean time...every company,as many have in the past stated as well as Jannard, that plays in this game is either playing catch up or isn't realizing what's on the horizon.

 

[Roberto B]

Last time I looked, neither Canon nor Nikon has a camera that does what the RED ONE does.

Jim

this is true jannard.. so looking to the opposite, please let it not be true too.

 

[Roberto B]

Isn't making movie images harder than still. Apples and Oranges until Scarlet.. comes out IMO.

joe said.

 

[Anthony Torres]

The 7D rumors are rumors.
Not like they would say different, but I asked Canon reps about it and they said it would make no sense to kill the 5D when it's selling so well and it's so early in it's life cycle. That things been on the market for such a short time and they'll kill it?
Do they have the technology to do so? Of course. Will they kill a great selling camera? No. Hi Def monitors were used in the early 70s by Douglas Trumbull for visual effects. Now you can buy a 47" 1080P on clearance for under $900 from Target. It takes a while for stuff to make it to market. (Still waiting on Scarlet...)

The 24P may be possible with a firmware, or in the next level 5D. You may know what you're doing, but all the 1080i sets wouldn't be able to playback the 24p unless it was in a 60i wrapper. Of all the HDTVs on the market, few can accept native 24fps. That's why 30p was put out there- dummy proof. It's a still camera that can shoot motion, which is awesome. Alas, they didn't consider post production or broadcast needs. They have another division for that.

 

[Jim Klatt]

The problem with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic is that they give you just enough features in a camera to satisfy the now. Where as RED is selling cameras for the present and the future.

I kind of see what your saying, but the Scarlet is not a product yet, nor has it withstood any test of time to substantiate your point.

If it came out next year and lasted 10 years as an A camera, then that would be something different. That would be incredible.

I am very skeptical that someone who buys a Scarlet, whenever it comes out, will be using that same camera in 10 years, even with possible refinements.

Technology moves so quickly that it is nearly impossible to predict everything that will happen to preemptively prepare for that in an existing camera, even if that camera is modular.

 

[Jim Klatt]

I asked Canon reps about it and they said it would make no sense to kill the 5D when it's selling so well and it's so early in it's life cycle. That things been on the market for such a short time and they'll kill it?

The rumor is that it is a 1.6 crop camera aimed at semi-pro's. If that were the case, it wouldn't be aiming at the full frame pro's, nor directly competing with the 5d. But you are right, they are just rumors.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I kind of see what your saying, but the Scarlet is not a product yet, nor has it withstood any test of time to substantiate your point.

If it came out next year and lasted 10 years as an A camera, then that would be something different. That would be incredible.

I am very skeptical that someone who buys a Scarlet, whenever it comes out, will be using that same camera in 10 years, even with possible refinements.

Technology moves so quickly that it is nearly impossible to predict everything that will happen to preemptively prepare for that in an existing camera, even if that camera is modular.

My statement was based on RED's track record so far along with looking at what Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic have done in the past.

 

[(blake)]

Technology moves so quickly that it is nearly impossible to predict everything that will happen to preemptively prepare for that in an existing camera, even if that camera is modular.

I'm going to kindly disagree. Huge numbers of theaters still do not have 4k projection on all of there screens. This is going to be the next standard. The upcoming Scarlet and Epic cameras will be able to finish and image at 4k (Scarlet) and 5k+ (645 and 617). This is ahead of the technology curve. All Red cameras that are planned are far ahead of technology curve. 4-6k cameras will not be outclassed by projection technology for at least 10 years. (Yes, I know Imax already exists but most theaters are not and will not be Imax equipped in a long time). Even in the case that superior projection is created more quickly, theaters absolutely will not spend the gigantic cost to immediately upgrade their newish 4k projectors.

Do I suspect people to hold onto and use the first generation of Scarlets till 2020? No way. However, these cameras will still be relevant. People will still be able to create cinema quality images. A professional Canon DSLR from even four years ago is arguably irrelevant now by their current prosumer lines. Can you still create quality images with a four year old DSLR? Absolutely, but the problem is that they are just indeed stills and many times hardware and driver support is completely abandoned since computer technology also keeps advancing. The argument against Canon, Sony, etc. Is that they are already playing catch up to something Red has already eclipsed.

 

[Brook Willard]

Gotta love the program. Keep inching the bar up with each model and getting the customer to buy a new camera every time. Love the business model. If you bought every Canon still along the way (1D, D60, 10D, 20D, 20Da, 5D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 1Ds, 1DMKII, 1DsMKII, etc.) I think you would have spent well over $60K (in the last 8 years). That does NOT count any Digital Rebels. I bought every 1D and 1Ds version released and groaned every time the next one came out with just enough new features to suck me in.

Jim

While I agree with you 100%, there is something to be said for what Canon is doing. With the 5D, they released a camera that was "good enough" for a lot of situations... including their flagship high-budget features and a few TV shows. While the RED ONE is superior in nearly every way, the Canon can do some things that the RED cannot. It's smaller, lighter, more sensitive and cheaper. Does that make it better? Certainly not, at least not from a broad perspective. But when the shot needs something very specific, the tool has to be very specific. And hell, "it worked for Matty and Shane, so get one of those things out here!"

While you guys have some extremely exciting plans for the Epic and Scarlet cameras - cameras that will almost certainly blow the 5D out of the water - I can go out and buy a 5D today. And while the 7D [and its 24p firmware] is another few thousand dollars to spend... it's a few thousand dollars that can be spent in the next few weeks or months. And that few thousand dollars on another camera body beats the few thousand dollars to do nice, high-quality 30p-to-24p converts through a movie or TV season.

At this point, a lot of people usually chime in with statements like "just wait for Epic/Scarlet!" or "man, they just don't know what's coming!" As romantic as that all is, the reality is that the Epic and Scarlet don't exist. While they're obviously very real cameras that will ship in time... as of today, we've got nothing. Their projected superiority is based on engineering targets, some conjecture and a few JPEG stills. Now please don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean this to come across as critical of RED in any way. I'm not trying to point out faults, not trying to shortchange RED and their tremendous accomplishments thus far and I'm not trying to be smart about the cameras being delayed... just pointing out that we're comparing a bag of apples to some vastly superior oranges that are being shipped in from overseas at some point soon probably.

So you're absolutely right - their business model is not consumer friendly. The firmware upgrade that Canon made a few months ago for the 5D was absolutely unheard of inside of the company. They just couldn't understand giving out features for free. And even though the 5D is physically capable of 24p, I'm sure we'll have to pay a few thousand dollars to upgrade to the 7D instead. And that sucks. A lot.

But as much as it sucks... I'll be picking one or two 7Ds up the day they ship. Not because I want to... but because I have to. It'll be the only 1080/24p large-sensor softball-sized camera that's actually on the market... and that's what is called for right now. And what's a few grand for an awesome shot anyways?

I really can't wait until the Epic ships... I'm floored with excitement. Everybody's ready for a camera like this. The bummer is that for all of the bad things to say about Canon's business model [and for all the 5/7D's shortcomings]... they've made the "good enough" camera first... and it's already on set.

So even though the Epic will nuke its face off... the Canon is already having an early field day with the market.

Save me from this thing! I can't wait to eBay the Canons and shoot with a movie camera.

 

[Florian Stadler]

I rented a 5D the other day to achieve a shot I couldn't have in the timeframe/budget constraints: Bike mounted shots of a girl riding over the Brooklyn bridge at night. The little thing was so light sensitive and easy to rig that we got 4 great shots we couldn't have gotten any other way in an hour and a half. I immediately bought the camera after that experience. To a.) film my son when he comes into this life in December and to b.) have a crazy perspective/super light sensitive little b camera in my back pocket. Would I ever shoot it A cam? Hell no but I would be stupid to ignore strenghts in a camera I can't get from any other device....

 

[Isaac Brody]

While the RED ONE is superior in nearly every way, the Canon can do some things that the RED cannot. It's smaller, lighter, more sensitive and cheaper. Does that make it better? Certainly not, at least not from a broad perspective. But when the shot needs something very specific, the tool has to be very specific.

I agree with your post just about 100 percent. There is something freeing about shooting with a lighter and more light sensitive camera. It gets me excited to go back to documentary material, and also to trim the fat and work closely with actors on a very small and intimate level. I've worked on Red shoots and the footage it creates is amazing, but it's a tool that isn't suited for every shoot. You can't trim it down for the gigs that require a man with a camera and a couple reflectors and quiet direction.

I am incredibly excited for Canon and Panasonics VDSLR's, and I wonder how Scarlet will fit into the mix since all the VDSLR's offer interchangeable lenses with a crop factor comparable to the Red One. Red One really pushed the industry but the prosumer divisions are really starting to push back. There's no competition with Redcode, but there is a point of good enough. DV/HDV/AVCHD are good enough when you shoot with careful attention. It's not pretty when you flub the exposure or pan too quickly, but people have had plenty of time to deal with these limitations in the past.

If the 7D has 24P it will really shake things up. The technology is there, and if Canon has the cajones to include that it could be some interesting competition to the Epic/Scarlet roadmap.

 

[Jim Klatt]

My statement was based on RED's track record so far along with looking at what Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic have done in the past.

You are comparing apples to oranges, though, and Red is in its infancy.

The only camera that RED has sold thus far exists in a price range between $20-30k, and was released 2 years ago. If you are going to be fair, you have to compare cameras from the other companies that are in the same price range, since they naturally have much longer lifespans than still cameras.

Even if you were to compare them to products that are tiny fractions of that cost: I owned a PD150 for 5 years. I had a DVX100 for about the same amount of time, as well as a Canon Rebel. That's not bad. I've also had lenses from Canon and Nikon for 15 years, and I still use them today.

There is no way to fairly compare until RED has been around for long enough to release more products, until then it is just talk(even if it is exciting).

I also am rubbed the wrong way when a company slights other companies(unfairly) as a way to seem superior(especially when their history is so short!).

 

[Matthias Hutter]

For those who didn't know, the 7D will probably be APS-C:

1. 18MP APSC CMOS
2. Dual DIGIC 4
3. 8 FPS (94 FINE JPEG/ 15 RAW)
4. New eight-directional double cross central AF point, total 19 cross AF points
5. ISO 100-6400 (Exp 12800)
6. 100% 1.0X magni VF with intelligent display, horizon assist
7. New iFCL metering (exposure and colour)
8. 3′ 920K Version II LCD, 160 deg viewing
9. Full HD video (w external mic input n HDMI output)

http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/08/7d-100-macro-pictures/