Camera Op / DP straw poll

[Mike Devlin]

I think NASA/JPL has been pulling focus on the Mars Rovers from California.

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

I think NASA/JPL has been pulling focus on the Mars Rovers from California.

Yeah but have you seen the images? A tad soft, don't you think?

 

[Charles Papert]

Nothing wrong with remote focus controls, and a little distance, but a guy pulling focus from the video village would certainly scare the heck out of me...

We actually tried this a couple of times on shots where the DP was insisting that there was a focus issue so the AC joined him at the tent for a take. The thing was that this was after multiple takes of fairly predictable shots (static actor takes one step forward, for instance) so the AC knew what the distances were that were involved, but it was the fine tuning that was in question.

FYI, we also used the Preston single-channel controller on the iris which allowed the DP or the DIT to ride the iris control as needed wirelessly from the tent. I think there was a post earlier that alluded to particular types of lenses needed to accomodate a wireless setup--might be worth pointing out here that the Preston system can be used on any lens that has gears.

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

FYI, we also used the Preston single-channel controller on the iris which allowed the DP or the DIT to ride the iris control as needed wirelessly from the tent. I think there was a post earlier that alluded to particular types of lenses needed to accomodate a wireless setup--might be worth pointing out here that the Preston system can be used on any lens that has gears.

That sounds really clever. I always thought that DPs on the video village screaming 1/3 stop changes to the AC while sunlight was changing on the set was couterproductive.

Hey and thanks everyone for taking your time and contributing with the discussion. It's really enlighting to be able to talk frankly with people with more experience like Blair, Charles, and Finner (to name a few). So I hope I'm not being stubborn and unreasoneble.

Maybe you're all right, and focus pulling might end up to be a task performed by a more of an engeneer kind of guy. I for one think the video assist operator's job is the first that has to go. The guy is as useful as remote video link. Have him some data to log and some metadata to edit, we're getting somewhere, but just to hand a cable to the first AC... C'mon... And I've done my share of it. A great way to learn how to be a camera assistant, but not a very glamurous profession.

But anyway, I remember that the more evolved digital camera of all time actually behaves more like a traditional film camera than like a video camera, capturing raw with minimal image control, and leaving room for adjustments after shooting. Manual iris, and manual focus. That should be a testament that tradicional shooting methods do work.

If things change, and if change is for the better, great. I've been (mere) 5 years working with this, I am certainly not tied to anything. Certainly not afraid of changes.

But I'm just not so eager to change something that works, unless something really better comes around...

Cheers!

 

[Finner]

Maybe you're all right, and focus pulling might end up to be a task performed by a more of an engeneer kind of guy. I

Manual iris, and manual focus. That should be a testament that tradicional shooting methods do work.

But I'm just not so eager to change something that works, unless something really better comes around...

Cheers!

Nice post Taubkin

I totally agree with you. I have worked with a bunch of different focus pullers and they seem to fall into 2 camps. One is MECHANICAL. These type of focus pullers lay lots of marks have laser pointers and use every little mechanical trick in the book. The othe is ZEN. These type usually have there tape measures lay a few marks and don't take a lot of measurements they just seem to get things sharp. When I pulled focus I was a ZEN style puller. To tell you the truth there was a bunch of times I would not even run out my tape measure I just kind of knew where I needed to be to be sharp. Neither way is right or better as long as things are sharp. I find now as a Director/DP I still tend to just go more "ZEN" with my shooting. I know what I should get for composition and metering but often I just go with my gut and what feels right for the shot instead of worring about the lighting ratios math and what is deemed correct composition. In the end each to their own. Hell we are pretty much just making pretty pictures and contrary to some stressed out peoples opinion on set it is not life or death.

 

[Steve Gibby]

...often I just go with my gut and what feels right for the shot...

Yep...that comes with experience...and there's no shortcut to experience. Repetition of similar creative circumstances creates a 6th sense of what works and what doesn't. I work the same way, but if my 6th sense tells me to check or re-check a shot a little closer, I do it.

 

[Finner]

The gut can cause mistakes but one of my favorite things about this industry is the ability to make mistakes. Often I love the look of some of my mistakes and throw them in to the final cut. My wife is an engineer, she makes a mistake and a bridge falls down. I make a mistake, I call it "Artistic Impression" and win an award for the project.

 

[Steve Gibby]

But anyway, I remember that the more evolved digital camera of all time actually behaves more like a traditional film camera than like a video camera, capturing raw with minimal image control, and leaving room for adjustments after shooting. Manual iris, and manual focus. That should be a testament that tradicional shooting methods do work.

Hmmm... I think your statement is cine-centric. Traditional film cameras used celluloid film and were mechanical. Video technology comes from electronic technology. RED One is the next incarnation of electronic technology, utilizing next-generation electronic components that were conceived and developed in the video and DSLR industries, not the film industry. EVF, electronic shutter, histograms, electronic focus assist, and a long list of other features of RED One share a common pedigree with video cameras and DSLR cameras - not traditional film cameras. Celuloid film locks in images. RAW has its legacy in the DSLR world. The electronics of the body of RED One are most closely related in technology of DSLR’s, followed by video cameras.

Lenses are a different story. Since RED One is a manual camera, and manual cine lenses and manual 35mm still lenses can be used on RED One, that makes the lens use workflow be similar to old style still photography and 35mm cinematography. That enables a more traditional film-style workflow in the field – if wanted or needed.

RED One can be operated similar to traditional film cameras, and undoubtedly will, by those who need to or want to parallel traditional film camera use, but RED One can also be accessorized and lensed for EFP production where it's field use is essentially the same as most other EFP cameras: EVF, B4 2/3" HD ENG lens, 1080p or 720p RGB recording. RED One also has a 12volt auxiliary power tap for powering the servo zoom motors of B4 2/3” HD ENG lenses. 2/3” ENG lenses have always had the ability to be switched to full manual operation, and professional EFP/ENG shooters regularly use them in full manual mode, so traditional film shooters aren’t the only ones who are used to manual lens operation.

Yeah…traditional shooting methods do work, and many who are comfortable with them will continue to use them. But there is a large and growing group of shooters who have the skill sets and desire to adjust their shooting methods to the equipment and style that best suits each particular project – whether that be cine-style or EFP style. With their RED One cameras, they may use a S35mm lenses, a tape measure, and use traditional film style shooting on a large crew feature one day, the next day be on location shooting an HDTV program in true EFP style, and the next day be shooting stock footage by themselves using 35mm still lenses in a style that most closely parallels DSLR use.

RED One is what you accessorize and lens it to be, depending on each particular project. It follows that depending on the accessories, lenses, and the genre of what each project is, your shooting methods will commensurately change to be traditional film style, EFP style, or a blend of the two.

An “I’ve always done it this way, and I don’t plan on evolving” attitude will never unlock the flexibility and utility of RED One. Once we feel we have all the answers we stop growing professionally…

We’re all in one big convergent image making tribe now, and I think that’s way cool. Let’s learn from each other’s styles and experience.

 

[Steve Gibby]

The gut can cause mistakes but one of my favorite things about this industry is the ability to make mistakes. Often I love the look of some of my mistakes and throw them in to the final cut. My wife is an engineer, she makes a mistake and a bridge falls down. I make a mistake, I call it "Artistic Impression" and win an award for the project.

LOL...no doubt! Some of the best advances in shooting styles have been the result of what shooters originally thought of as mistakes, but after thinking about it and developing it, became "new looks".

Very cool to push the boundaries out further...

 

[Charles Papert]

That's a funny line Finner, I think I'll use that one! And true enough about the "life and death" aspect of it. A lot of this depends on who you are working for and what the expectations are. I once had the experience of sitting in a dailies screening room full of studio brass along with the producers, director etc. and had a scene come up that was printed with the wrong timing lights, resulting in their multi-million dollar actor's face disappearing into the shadows--the silence was deafening, and I nearly lost my lunch. You would have thought the bridge had fallen down...! (all was well by the next day's reprints, thankfullly).

It is interesting to see different focus pullers use differing levels of technology, I've definitely seen some guys who can do amazing things with nothing but a tape measure. All of the good ones still have to have that Zen mode within them as sometimes there's no other way. The other week we were pulling the lovely Charlize Theron down a hallway and through a doorway at top speed--it was pretty obvious on the monitor whether I was making it through in time, but the AC was blind for the critical part of the shot and had to use his best guess if it worked (the dailies looked great, turns out he knew exactly which takes he had it or not).

I honestly don't think that focus pulling will ever become an "engineer/technician" type of job, there are too many decisions that require an understanding of the overall filmmaking process to simplify it down to 1's and 0's. Knowing when and what speed to pull a rack has to do with understanding the emotion of a scene and being able to read the actor's rhythm. And on the subject of video assist operator, Taubkin--on most shows I've been on, a dedicated video assist guy is there to record takes on a hard drive system and playback for the director with a high degree of efficiency (most directors get awfully gruff if there is any delay or misunderstanding in this process!) and definitely needs to be a dedicated job. When there is no vidoe assist position on set, the camera assistants have to manage the video monitors and cabling, which can be a fierce task in the HD world. In fact, video assist is not actually a camera department job in the union world, it's part of the sound local. The DIT position is evolving for sure as cameras move towards RAW capture, where they don't need to painted for individual shots. The process of shooting high-end HD is currently complex enough to justify an individual to be able to wrangle the additional technology, troubleshoot as needed and run the engineering station, and even with a camera as seemingly "simple" as RED I still think there will be a need for an additional person with this job description for a while. Of course on a low-budget shoot the tasks are divided up differently, but I honestly feel that a DP's job is filled up with enough responsibilities (overseeing three departments and working with the director) to also have to deal with camera menus and trueing monitors, etc.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

DIT plus

DIT plus

Just a little blue sky thinking here but what about an assistant DoP? DIT plus? I am seeing the need for a position that sort of protects the DoP's "post flank".

If you do your due diligence and reverse engineer your workflow pipeline back from the DI stage on a digital acquisition show, there are a host of data and metadata management issues. As Charles mentioned the DoP is already dealing with 3 departments and the director.

Union turf battles aside the new end-to-end digital paradigm may require a new roster of personnel assignments. Perhaps a "look" and data manager, we'll call him "looky-dat, looky-dat"

 

[Charles Papert]

The current DIT position, (which is a Local 600 classification, as opposed to video assist operator) is pretty much what you described, Blair--a good one can dial in the look and act sort of like a "pre-colorist" for the DP, watching out for issues and creating the LUT's for the post-production colorist. The DIT rate is actually equal to the camera operator in the Basic Agreement (and more than the DP's rate in the Videotape Agreement...!)

 

[Steve Gibby]

The vast majority of professional productions worldwide are non-union. If you're trying to break some new ground in job classifications and duties, centered around evolving digital workflows and equipment like RED One, then for various reasons, I think marketing that to the non-union segment of the production community will bring you quicker success. That's not to say that union work won't evolve, or in any way to minimize union work, but evolution of jobs and job descriptions and duties just seems to be faster in the non-union environment.

Of the 800+ nationally and internationally airing television programs I've contributed to as a producer, director, editor, scriptwriter, DP, cinematographer, and videographer, none of them have been union. If they had been, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to spread my skill sets so broad because union rules would restrict that. I didn't want to be locked into just being a narrow job classification or group of skill sets, so I avoided union work. I have many friends who went the union route and are happy with it. I certainly won't criticize their choice on that - to each their own.

For you Blair, IMO your forward thinking on RED One field workflows will produce quicker and broader results in the non-union working arena.