Camera Op / DP straw poll

[Cail Young]

If given the option, would you prefer to use view-finder type LCD to monitor your RED shoot, or the larger LCD? Bear in mind that there's no optical VF, I find it hard to see any benefit for a view-finder style LCD except in bright daylight - so what am I missing, working professionals?

 

[Evin Grant]

depends on the shooting situation. All shoulder mount and daylight outdoor shooting will be better served by the EVF. The LCD will be better for most tripod, dolly and other stable or stationary shooting platforms.

 

[Charles Papert]

Assuming that both types of viewing are relatively equal in terms of resolution (i.e. one does not represent a significant compromise against the other), my breakdown would be a little more complicated as it depends on the situation.

Handheld: generally the viewfinder, but if I am in a situation where I need to be more "heads-up" due to negotiating challenging topography or need flexibility in positioning of the camera during a shot, I will mount the LCD just to the left of the mattebox, or on top if I need to work with the camera cradled in my arms. Incidentally the fantastic handheld sequence towards the end of "Children of Men" was operated in the latter fashion.

Dolly: generally again a viewfinder, mounted rear left side with a leveling arm. It allows me to be more "connected" to the performance. However if a dolly move requires a lot of contortion to stay in the viewfinder, such as a 180 degree pan, using the full range of the boom arm (which often requires an adjustment to the length of the leveler during the shot) I may opt for the LCD to make things easier. Sometimes during a long day I will switch modes simply to ease the eyestrain of the viewfinder.

Usually daylight exterior work will require the viewfinder, but given the above exceptions, even a somewhat washed-out LCD may still improve the results. I'll try to do some rehearsals with the viewfinder to make sure that the shot is free of issues before going to the LCD which will just deliver framing information.

So much of this has to do with the image quality of the respective displays. The reason that optical viewfinders have been favored for so long is that they deliver much more information than a small LCD, allowing one to detect boom shadows, errant light stands, flares, etc more easily; not to mention judging critical focus, very important to be able to give feedback to the focus puller. I have yet to see an electronic viewfinder that can rival the clarity of the best optical viewfinders (hoping that RED's will be the one!) so when operating HD shows, for instance with the Panavision Genesis, I am more likely to use the LCD as I get at least as much and generally more information out of that. As I said originally, much of this depends on the monitor and viewfinder in question.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Given that the LCD is included in the price, that's what I'll be using for the forseeable future. I made it work with my DVX, I'll make it work with RED.

 

[Don Woods]

I agree with Evin it just depends on what I'm shooting. I think I will use the EFV more but I do see my self using the LCD allot also.

 

[donatello b]

in general ... 75% view finder ... 25% LCD ..

 

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Viewfinder all the way for me.
If I direct I would use the monitor to view the performance.

 

[Finner]

EVF will be usable in pretty much every shooting situation. LCD will be difficult outside.

I am buying both but if I could only get one it would be EVF hands down.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I'll use both the EVF and LCD regularly. Use will depend on the style and location of shooting.

Both the EVF and LCD are projected to be 720p, and RED has stated that their focus assist will be very effective. Given that info, and assuming that the focus assist is effective, here's my thoughts:

Tripod
There are situations where tripod is pedded up high or low where the LCD will come in handy. For chest level to head level shooting I'll use the EVF quite a bit.

Stabilizer
I'll use the LCD for this because spatial orientation while walking or running with a camera is essential. Tripping over cables and other obstacles is a real concern, thus peripheral vision is needed.

Hand held
When the camera is held low to the ground or at arms reach high, I'll use the LCD because there is usually no way to get my eye up to an EVF. I walk and even run smoothly with cameras up to 30 lbs held at arms length, so the LCD will be used for that.

Shoulder mount
I'll mostly use the EVF for this, but generally with my off-EVF eye open to see what's happening around me and outside the frame. I shoot in dangerous locations where things are moving (sports, etc.), so knowing what is going on around me, and coming at me is critical. There may be shoulder held situations where I use the LCD because I'm a little more stationary, it's a longer shot, and my face doesn't need to be against the EVF cup.

For all outdoor shooting with the LCD I'll use an LCD hood to control ambient light on the LCD face. Lots of companies offer them, made of nylon, and attachable with velcro or snaps. For some indoor shooting with the LCD I'll also use an LCD hood if stray light may be an issue.

I'm not concerned with the OVF vs. EVF issue. RED can be accessorized and lensed for cine style and EFP style use, and I'll use it for both. An OVF would be overkill and heavier for mobile EFP work. RED has stated that the LCD will be high-res (720p), the focus assist will be effective, that we'll be able to see outside the framed area when using the EVF, and that framing lines can be generated for the LCD and EVF. I’ll be happy to have a good EVF with those features.

 

[Dominic Jones]

For all outdoor shooting with the LCD I'll use an LCD hood to control ambient light on the LCD face.

As will most of us, I imagine - any chance that RED could include a hood option, similar to Marshall monitors, for instance?

I'd much prefer a hard (lightweight metal or ABS) shade over the Hoodman type (which I currently use on smaller monitors)...

 

[Steve Gibby]

As will most of us, I imagine - any chance that RED could include a hood option, similar to Marshall monitors, for instance?

I'd much prefer a hard (lightweight metal or ABS) shade over the Hoodman type (which I currently use on smaller monitors)...

Don't know if RED will include an LCD hood or have it available as an option. I see from RED team members posts that they are quite aware of the LCD glare issues. My guess is that they will have a good non-glare coating on the LCD panel, and it is possible that they may offer a RED Hood for the LCD. If they don't, a 3rd party will.

 

[Jared VanLeuven]

Has anyone heard whether the EVF will be monochrome? Actually, it would be very sweet if the EVF and LCD could be switched monochrome/color. That would help focusing even more. Not sure if LCD tech permits this to fully realize the benefit for that particular use.

 

[SF Geek]

I would most likely use both, the viewfinder for me and the screen for my first. I hope everyone understands how important focus is going to be and how crucial a good first is. Even the best focus assist cannot come close to comparing.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I would most likely use both, the viewfinder for me and the screen for my first. I hope everyone understands how important focus is going to be and how crucial a good first is. Even the best focus assist cannot come close to comparing.

A lot of experienced shooters will be using RED One alone for mobile cine style and EFP style, using S35, 35mm still, S16, and B4 lenses. If RED's high-res LCD and EVF dance well with their focus assist, in all but the shallowest DOF shots, they should be able to do their own focusing if necessary or desired. In mobile EFP work, where DOF is generally deeper, a first isn't normally used. DOF is deeper using S16 in 2K and B4 2/3" in 1080p, making a first unnecessary.

Those who are used to working in a large crew, S35mm cine-style field workflow will undoubtedly use a first. I think it's important to remember that RED One, having a wide range of lens and format options, is not locked into the big crew, cine-style scenario, in fact, experienced shooters will readily be able to shoot alone with RED One, in both cine style and EFP style.

RED One will be what you want or need it to be...

 

[SF Geek]

It's not the experienced people I'm worried about Gibby. Although you made me think about the RED camera. Is it really all that well suited for ENG, EFP? Is a Bayer pattern CMOS chip windowed down to 1/4 its original size going to produce as good an image as a good 3 chip CCD at the same size? Is RED really the best choice for that style of shooting?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Is it really all that well suited for ENG, EFP? Is a Bayer pattern CMOS chip windowed down to 1/4 its original size going to produce as good an image as a good 3 chip CCD at the same size? Is RED really the best choice for that style of shooting?

Sure, RED One can be very well suited for non-hardlined EFP, with the EVF, RED 18-85 zoom or S16 zoom or B4 2/3" HD zoom, shoulder brace, and RED Flash or RED Drive. Electronic news gathering specifically? No, for various post workflow reasons. I believe Graeme Nattress mentioned he felt a windowed RED One 1080p image could potentially look better than a 1080p image from a 3 chip CCD camera. Yeah, I think with the right accessories and lenses, RED One can be the best choice for EFP shooting - not the only choice.

Huge numbers of shooters now shoot in cine style and EFP style for professional and fiscal reasons. Being able to quickly re-accessorize and re-lens the same camera for both styles is basic to the concept of RED One. This concept has been discussed by RED since RED was formed, was covered by Jim Jannard in my published interview with him almost a year ago, and has been confirmed by Stuart English and multiple RED team members repeatedly over the past year. RED One is a digital cinema camera that also has been designed to be used effectively for EFP production. Utility and flexibility, not just a narrow use range, has been stated by RED from the very beginning.

 

[tj williams]

it all depends

it all depends

1.most LCD imagers get better rez as they get bigger. thus a lot of small lcds accept the HD input but put out 480I type rez. IE the small Marshall HD monitor! a small lcd used in s viewfinder therefore may be expected to have less resolution that the lcd.

Most electronic viewfinders have used tubes in the past will the red use a tube?

I've always used the viewfinder in film, started using monitors mounted on the camera a few years ago and shot some recent tv stuff overseas with ziU cameras and really started to like the tilt out monitor (which is very bright) except out on the glaciers where there were problems seeing clearly.

So the Questions RED guys before we know what to use"

1. which will have more resolution the viewfinder or the lcd?

2. How daylite viewable will the lcd actually be?

3. Will either the lcd or the viewfinder allow overdriving the edge inhancement to more clearly see where you are in focus like the Sony or Panasonic broadcast viewfinders do?

 

[Brook Willard]

3. Will either the lcd or the viewfinder allow overdriving the edge inhancement to more clearly see where you are in focus like the Sony or Panasonic broadcast viewfinders do?

Apparently the RED ONE's focus assist goes well beyond this...

 

[Mike the beginner]

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Quote by SF Geek
It's not the experienced people I'm worried about Gibby. Although you made me think about the RED camera. Is it really all that well suited for ENG, EFP? Is a Bayer pattern CMOS chip windowed down to 1/4 its original size going to produce as good an image as a good 3 chip CCD at the same size? Is RED really the best choice for that style of shooting?

I suppose we will have to wait and see just how good the resolution will be on the red compared to top quality 3 CCD cameras in windowed mode 2k.

There are certain advantages with red having larger individual pixels than a comparable 3ccd camera. This could well be significant in situations of low light which should give red a clear advantage.

I think i remember Graeme mentioning other advantages due to the larger pixels of the red one.

Michael

 

[Steve Gibby]

1. which will have more resolution the viewfinder or the lcd?

RED has stated their intentions to make both the EVF and LCD the same high resolution - 720p

2. How daylite viewable will the lcd actually be?

Stuart English just mentioned on another thread on REDUser that RED is aware of potential problems with glare when using the LCD. In combination with an anti -glare coating on the LCD screen, the use of an LCD hood should eliminate most problems with glare.