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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Buying Epic/Dragon or Scarlet Dragon ?

The key decision makers for me would be the ability to shoot higher frame rates, however, the big one for me when it comes to image acquisition is access to the larger format sized that Epic Dragon can do.

Scarlet Dragon tops out for motion work at 5K, which is fantastic as that's essentially S35 3-perf. Truly excellent.

Epic Dragon gives you 5.5K and 6K resolutions. 5.5K mimics what you get with Mysterium-X's maximum frame size. 6K gives you even more. The extra frame height gets you into the Academy 35mm frame size, which might be important for some people.
 
You can always re-frame/scale down but never up. Original Scarlet user that upgraded to Epic on my way to Dragon. Epic has allowed me to get jobs and shoot in ways that I would never have could in Scarlet. Not saying Scarlet is not a good camera, but the FOV is huge for me is lens selections and camera positions. Also, it's amazing how many times I crank up the FPS on an event shoot- everything looks like butter at 100 fps. Go big man!
 
Ian D said:
When trying to work with large indoor areas where you want the house lights to register. Say a stop and a half under your key light for your talent, setting your stop at 2.8 its not feasible with out a major lighting change to make the scene work. 2.5 stops of additional light to compensate for a filter or to use daylight is a real curse, like Ivan said bad lighting is bad lighting, excessive noise specific to a camera that is not easy to compensate for is a bit of an issue, yes work arounds are there but they are not ideal. Point : I wrongly assumed if I had a lower compression I would be able to limit the noise. - I'll put a disclaimer that I am asking questions not declaring any facts so I don't perpetuate any misinformation, or head line material -

Michael, what iso would you work with under tungsten lighting with the use of a ctb filter (81 filter is it ) on dragon ? Would you go lower in compression than 6:1 ?

Cheers
Ian
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When you are shooting daylight you can expect great performance at ISO 800 and decent performance at ISO 2000. When you shoot tungsten you need to amplify the blue channel by a good 2-2.5 stops, meaning that you can get ISO 2000 performance from the blue channel at ISO 250. If you convert your light sources to daylight (filter on the camera or filters on the light doesn't matter) then you get daylight performance, which means ISO 800 will look like ISO 800 and ISO 2000 will look like ISO 2000. No magic there.

When I pixel-peep I can see compression artifacts at 9:1 compression. I normally shoot my EPIC at 5:1. I don't know whether SCARLET DRAGON will do 5:1 or 6:1. I have the mini-mags, and therefore hope it will reach 5:1.
 
When you consider the number of producers that won't rent a Scarlet but will rent an Epic, the question becomes simple. The number of rentals I would have lost by owning a Scarlet would have cost me more in the long run then the additional cost of buying an Epic.
 
Every shot you do at 5.5 or 6K will look a little better, frame rates be damned. Is that worth something to you? It is to me. If you can afford it, go Epic. Big budget jobs will always want Epic, not Scarlet.
 
Michael Tiemann said:
When you are shooting daylight you can expect great performance at ISO 800 and decent performance at ISO 2000. When you shoot tungsten you need to amplify the blue channel by a good 2-2.5 stops, meaning that you can get ISO 2000 performance from the blue channel at ISO 250. If you convert your light sources to daylight (filter on the camera or filters on the light doesn't matter) then you get daylight performance, which means ISO 800 will look like ISO 800 and ISO 2000 will look like ISO 2000. No magic there.

When I pixel-peep I can see compression artifacts at 9:1 compression. I normally shoot my EPIC at 5:1. I don't know whether SCARLET DRAGON will do 5:1 or 6:1. I have the mini-mags, and therefore hope it will reach 5:1.
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Scarlet cannot do 5:1
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I think buying a Scarlet is a terrible idea (I did it once already). And if you're shooting green screen you will want uncompressed redcode options (3:1). You also have a harder time finding sufficiently wide-angle lenses.
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Interesting. What is the technical reason for this assertion?
Are you saying that Scarlet Dragon @ 6:1 will produce potentially bad chroma key?
 
Eric Watson said:
Why? Is this because of the cropped sensor in the Scarlet?
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In terms of high frame rates yes.

Eric Watson said:
What is the technical reason for this assertion?
Are you saying that Scarlet Dragon @ 6:1 will produce potentially bad chroma key?
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Not to speak (again) for Gavin but yes/no/kinda. Put simply, less compression = better likelihood of a good key.
 
FWIW

Here's my take.

Epic is a much better value all around. You are getting more camera / more bang for your buck with Epic, either MX or Dragon. (But even more so Dragon since the cost difference in term of a percentage of your investment is even less.

So Epic is the better overall choice. Plus it rents way better too.

However, it all depends on your budget. I'd much prefer a Scarlet with a really decent light kit and support gear to an Epic with a lesser package.

Just my $0.02.
 
Personally I don't get the scarlet. Its great for RED cause if an owner-op buys in he/she is buying into an ecosystem of accessories and media, but other than that its bad value.

1/2 price for less than half the camera but all add-on's and necessary accessories are the same price, ie almost the cost again. Like I said, I don't get it, especially in Europe.
 
Phil Holland said:
The key decision makers for me would be the ability to shoot higher frame rates, however, the big one for me when it comes to image acquisition is access to the larger format sized that Epic Dragon can do.

Scarlet Dragon tops out for motion work at 5K, which is fantastic as that's essentially S35 3-perf. Truly excellent.
Epic Dragon gives you 5.5K and 6K resolutions. 5.5K mimics what you get with Mysterium-X's maximum frame size. 6K gives you even more. The extra frame height gets you into the Academy 35mm frame size, which might be important for some people.
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Although the Scarlet Dragon isn't shipping yet, Phil's post got me to thinking.

If you take 6K footage shot on the Epic Dragon with the new OLPF and "down sample" it to 4K or even 2K delivery, could most people tell the difference between the same scene (or frame grab for that matter) shot with the Scarlet Dragon? I'm talking like for like, exact variables now...same scene, lens, f-stop, lighting, shutter, etc. Seriously, with the OP having a five figure investment to consider, certainly someone's done a validation test of some sort using the Epic Dragon by itself. Right?
 
Eric Watson said:
Although the Scarlet Dragon isn't shipping yet, Phil's post got me to thinking.

If you take 6K footage shot on the Epic Dragon with the new OLPF and "down sample" it to 4K or even 2K delivery, could most people tell the difference between the same scene (or frame grab for that matter) shot with the Scarlet Dragon? I'm talking like for like, exact variables now...same scene, lens, f-stop, lighting, shutter, etc. Seriously, with the OP having a five figure investment to consider, certainly someone's done a validation test of some sort using the Epic Dragon by itself. Right?
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Yes, because the Scarlet footage would be 12fps.
 
I would suggest the Epic-X/Epic-M Dragon series, because of the Frame rates, but If you are not much of a fan of higher frame rates, then Scarlet Dragon is your best bet For Scarlet Dragon. 48fps at 5K on the Scarlet Dragon is solid!
 
Ivan McCullough said:
Personally I don't get the scarlet. Its great for RED cause if an owner-op buys in he/she is buying into an ecosystem of accessories and media, but other than that its bad value.

1/2 price for less than half the camera but all add-on's and necessary accessories are the same price, ie almost the cost again. Like I said, I don't get it, especially in Europe.
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My plan was always to go to Epic from Scarlet. So the fact that I was able to upgrade my "brain" or sell it on it's own appealed to me. And I didn't have to buy things like my DSMC Side Handle all over again. That thing has been with me through 3 cameras now. Same could be said about my LCD Touch screens.


Eric Watson said:
Although the Scarlet Dragon isn't shipping yet, Phil's post got me to thinking.

If you take 6K footage shot on the Epic Dragon with the new OLPF and "down sample" it to 4K or even 2K delivery, could most people tell the difference between the same scene (or frame grab for that matter) shot with the Scarlet Dragon? I'm talking like for like, exact variables now...same scene, lens, f-stop, lighting, shutter, etc. Seriously, with the OP having a five figure investment to consider, certainly someone's done a validation test of some sort using the Epic Dragon by itself. Right?
Click to expand...

If you are talking pure resolution, well yes slightly. Thought at 2K it would be harder to notice.

The bigger difference comes down to having access to the larger format size as a creative medium, higher frame rates, lower REDCODE compression ratios, etc... 5.5K and 6K are significant enough jumps beyond the more S35 minded 5K, though that 5K film relevance is equally if not even more important. I'm a large format guy and when Red goes bigger I'll have to find more of my soul to sale to get that camera as well.

I know at least 3 people who are getting Scarlet Dragons as B and C cameras to their Epic Dragon once that time comes.
 
For me it came down to 5 things:

1) Like Phil I wanted the larger sensor. The larger the better IMO. Wider angle options, shallower depth of field. More surface area for collecting photons = cleaner image.
2) It's a better image. Between the lower compression and the higher resolution the Epic just seemed less noisy than my Scarlet.
3) I had to keep renting Epics for commercial shoots. We always needed an Epic body for agency shoots. Lower compression, high frame rates, larger sensor--the DPs always wanted Epic so that was $1,000 per shoot that could have gone into my own package but instead went to rental houses. I also missed out on 2-3 rentals which needed Epic.
4) Lower compression. Essential for evergreen forests (I live in Washington state) and green screen where fine detail turns to mush and keys get splotchy noise which takes longer to key. Longer keys == $200 an hour down the drain. Multiply that out across several projects and days of VFX and you're wasting money on Scarlet footage.
5) Price. You need a side handle. You need a touch LCD. You need V-mounts. You need SSDs. You need a battery plate. You need a bottom plate. You need a top plate. You need NATO rails. You need a top handle. You need a lens mount. You need XLR adapters. You need a dovetail. You need REDVolts. You need chargers. You need bridge plates. By the time you add up all of the shit that you need for a production ready package you've spent way more than the price of a brain. The price of a Side Handle doesn't go down because the brain is cheaper. Sure you can get a Scarlet Brain for $7k. But even the most basic of package costs $15,000 for a Scarlet. All told I'm probably about $60k into my Epic kit. If I hadn't upgraded to Epic from Scarlet that means I would have spent $50k. That's just a 20% price increase. Not to mention I've spent or lost more than $10k because I or a potential renter *had* to have Epic not a Scarlet. So the upgrade paid for itself and it wasn't even that much in the grand scheme of things. If you're just keeping a body around essentially as an emergency backup on set to not stop production I can see Scarlet being valuable. But if I'm going to kit-out a full production package I wouldn't ever buy Scarlet again.

It really comes down this:

Epic -> Epic Dragon upgrade: $9500
Scarlet -> Scarlet Dragon upgrade: $9500.

You're paying exactly the same amount to get way way way less.
 
That's assuming we all only care about frame rates, sensor area, 6k and compression. I'm fine with the mild bump from scarlet in those areas to scarlet dragon, the DR and colour are far more important to me. I've kept my kit well under 20k total (lots of third party, no red monitor, many ways to keep cost down if you desire) so the total cost of my kit is nowhere near 50k(plus most of these expenses apply to all cameras, lenses, rigging, filters, tripods, vmounts, sound kit etc...) so the comparative price of $9500 for newest sensor and tech from red is well worth it for me in the lower end of the market. The extra $9500 will be much better spent on lights, lenses, rigging, and potentially a gimbal stabilizer, with regards to my working style and business model. Though I'm not going to buy $9500 worth of gear because I didn't get an epic dragon, just pointing out what that saved money would go to down the road.

depends on your needs and what and how you shoot, to me scarlet dragon is an amazing deal if you look at it in isolation ignoring the other options, I get 5k for my used camera that has earned me well over it's initial price. So for me it's the reverse if I'm going to spend 19k on an epic dragon with my work style I would rather save up with my scarlet dragon over the next year or so and purchase an epic dragon outright down the road when I might need it on a more regular basis (and I can justify the added expense).

But I don't rent, or compete for gigs based on my personal kit, if needed I'll just rent, but that is me to each their own. Scarlet has been more than enough for me in regards to frame rates and compression as well as sensor size, so the minor upgrade in those areas comparatively is plenty for me. 6K would be sweet but I can always mess with stylized 6k twixtored up to 24fps for that surreal look, though 5k at a larger sensor area than 4k on scarlet will be more than enough for me for at least the next year or two. On the compression side I have rarely run into issues at the lowest given compressions on scarlet, but isn't the compression on dragon even more efficient making the argument for lower compression on epic a little moot, though I haven't seen rigorous comparative compression ratios tests yet so who knows I could be way off on this one, plus scarlet could be only able to get like 10:1 instead of 6:1 comparatively to old the scarlet, I guess we'll wait and see as I don't think the full table of scarlet compression ratios has been posted.

Admittedly it's a tough decision, though mine is if I should keep my scarlet and just buy a scarlet dragon, but at this point that added expense versus the potential profit from two different cameras doesn't work out with my business model, so I go the route with potentially the shorter end of the stick, yes I'll admit, but after looking at it it's still the best option for me.

Fun times ahead, and who knows what the future will bring, choices aren't they wonderfully horribly difficult to make/justify these days?

Have a good one!
 
I agree with Stephen .

Plus I reckon theres a whole lot of Epics out there shooting 24,25,30 fps and not much else ( hence why epic owners use Scarlets as 2nd /3rd cams) . HFP in my world is over rated when I need it I hire it in. Dragon compression rates everyones talking good results @ 12.1 personally 5.1 is where I'll be and its more than enough for TV.

6K sensor for TV ( I work in it ) makes no sense given everything is being down converted to HD at best or worse SD. Also theres the lensing issues with the larger 6K sensor and vignetting ( notice all those Red pro primes and other lens sets for sale ).

For me denser pixels within the S35 format and more DR is where it is at and Scarlet easily fills that need.
 
I'll chime in as a long time Scarlet owner and shooter.

Go EPIC.

If you interact with agency/producers/rentals in any regard go EPIC. Scarlet has been and always will play second fiddle no matter what even if you are shooting 24p 4k 18:1 all day. It isn't taken nearly as seriously as EPIC in addition to all the other advantages you get with the EPIC. As an owner and lover of this camera, that's just the truth. It's especially funny because if EPIC didn't exist think of how Scarlet would fair in the market...
 
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