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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"Burst" mode possible?

"Burst" mode possible?

  • Total voters
    98
Mike P. said:
How would 5k WS be possible? I'm going under the idea that 4096x2160 = ~8.85megs/frame = 4608x1920 (4.5k at 2.40:1 WS/Crop)... 5k WS is way more than that per frame (it's like 10 or 12meg/frame). Or are you going using 24 vs 30fps and comparing the total per second filtrate? If so, that's not a reasonable assumption (4.5k is perfectly reasonable though).
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One would assume that the amount of data (or number of pixels) captured per second is what counts. 4096*2160*30 is exactly the same as 5120*2160*24 (265420800). Why wouldn't it be reasonable to compare 4K 30fps to 5K WS 24fps?
 
Steve Phillipps said:
There seemed to be a bit of debate and uncertainty about how the the FS700 does slow motion bursts. At upto 240fps it appears that it is 100% full resolution, for upto 10 seconds, which is very impressive. One slight problem (for some) is that it appears that it won't work with external recorders as it doesn't play at realtime speed through the HDMI, it write to the internal card at 3x speed - good because its quick, but I'm sure that means it won't work with Nanoflash etc. I'm sure this could be easily solved with firmware. This does mean that you're left with the 28 mb/s codec, which for some is fine, but for many is not good enough.
This is different to cameras like the Phantom, where once you've got your burst stored in RAM you can play it back at normal speed, even set in and out points instead saving the whole file, whereas the Sony seemingly doesn't give you any options - as soon as you finish the recording it writes to card immediately, and all you do is cancel it or let it record.
Steve
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Cheers for that post Steve
 
Steve Phillipps said:
There seemed to be a bit of debate and uncertainty about how the the FS700 does slow motion bursts. At upto 240fps it appears that it is 100% full resolution, for upto 10 seconds, which is very impressive. One slight problem (for some) is that it appears that it won't work with external recorders as it doesn't play at realtime speed through the HDMI, it write to the internal card at 3x speed - good because its quick, but I'm sure that means it won't work with Nanoflash etc. I'm sure this could be easily solved with firmware. This does mean that you're left with the 28 mb/s codec, which for some is fine, but for many is not good enough.
This is different to cameras like the Phantom, where once you've got your burst stored in RAM you can play it back at normal speed, even set in and out points instead saving the whole file, whereas the Sony seemingly doesn't give you any options - as soon as you finish the recording it writes to card immediately, and all you do is cancel it or let it record.
Steve
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Thanks for the info. :thumbsup:

Keeping in mind that at full resolution this burst requires the system to process an order of magnitude more pixels. It is very impressive indeed.

It appears that you are saying it takes 30 seconds to write the 10 second burst, is that right? Presumably this is either because it can not physically write the data fast enough or it is due to a limitation of processing power/speed. It may be both. If the problem is processing power, then it would be incorrect to asssume that more compression would solve the problem. In fact, it would compound the problem.

If the Scarlet possesses enough RAM to do the job we are still left with this question of processing power, which we know to be an issue beyond 4k regular speed.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
It appears that you are saying it takes 30 seconds to write the 10 second burst, is that right?
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No, it does something like 8 seconds realtime, so at 240fps you end up with an 80 second shot at 24P, this writes to the card at 3x speed so it takes about 25 seconds to write it to the card. If you wanted to write it to a Nanoflash or similar via playback mode you'd need it to playback realtime, taking 80 seconds to write it - this is how it works with Phantom if writing via HDSDI, but as I said with Phantom you can mark in and out points and only save the bit you want, really good. Don't see any reason why the FS700 couldn't have software to go into playback mode after the burst allowing you to do the same thing.
Steve
 
Yes, but once it's buffered back to the card, it's compressed... so playing off to a nanoflash in realtime will mean recording a compressed source.
 
Andy White said:
Yes, but once it's buffered back to the card, it's compressed... so playing off to a nanoflash in realtime will mean recording a compressed source.
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Yes, so what I mean is playing it while in the RAM buffer as you do with the Phantom, trim your shot, and then write to the card / external recorder.
Steve
 
You've seen a pre-production unit do this, or are you interpreting specs?

Steve Phillipps said:
No, it does something like 8 seconds realtime, so at 240fps you end up with an 80 second shot at 24P, this writes to the card at 3x speed so it takes about 25 seconds to write it to the card. If you wanted to write it to a Nanoflash or similar via playback mode you'd need it to playback realtime, taking 80 seconds to write it - this is how it works with Phantom if writing via HDSDI, but as I said with Phantom you can mark in and out points and only save the bit you want, really good. Don't see any reason why the FS700 couldn't have software to go into playback mode after the burst allowing you to do the same thing.
Steve
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No, that is what it does, it's been described in several reviews. Are they out in the States yet? The first ones arrived at the dealers in the UK a few days ago.
Steve
 
Steve Phillipps said:
Yes, so what I mean is playing it while in the RAM buffer as you do with the Phantom, trim your shot, and then write to the card / external recorder.
Steve
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I don't think this is possible on the FS700. As far as my understanding goes (and I could be wrong!), the burst fills the RAM and then plays it out to memory card. Whilst you can edit within RAM, the clip doesn't become playable via external outs until it's printed to the card.

If it was possible to play out from the buffer, that would be a different ball game.
 
Patrick Grossien said:
Those were the days! Hehehe! It sure was quite some time before the SSD time. hehehe That's what I meant with "a whole lot changed since then" and "How hard this is with the existing hardware"... Since we don't know what the plans were back than hardware wise and what it exactly is that changed on the interior, this is all highly speculative.
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Yesss, but speculating is fun. :)


Never thought, never said, never implied it ;) All in all I guess you misunderstood my post a bit. This is exactly what I was talking about. But maybe I misread yours... hehehe. We're all good, just teasing!
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Hehe, granted, a bit misunderstanding was included here and there. :) I guess i had some other posts in mind too.

I wouldn't bet on it either. Not at all. What I meant is that if this is at all possible for them, they will do it sometime.
I don't believe that RED is a company holding back on features on purpose. And this belief is why I bought a RED and not a SONY ;)
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I totally agree, thats one of the reasons why i bought a RED camera. RED is one of the rare companies that can be trusted such things. This belief can actually been seen everywhere here, just look around how things like feature-requests are discussed. Everyone beliefs RED can do things with current hardware. In a forum about the competition we would talk about features for their next generation(s) and probably get moderated for talking about problems and bugs. ;)

Hehehe true that. :) And it's so much fun to use it for stupid speculative purposes... I made a little sheet with possible fps through data rate math juggling. It's just plain old fun. Need some math from time to time to get away from working with and looking at pictures ... hehehe
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Hehe, playing around with this highend camera is a bit inspiring to do such things.
 
Andy White said:
I don't think this is possible on the FS700. As far as my understanding goes (and I could be wrong!), the burst fills the RAM and then plays it out to memory card. Whilst you can edit within RAM, the clip doesn't become playable via external outs until it's printed to the card.
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That's correct, that's how it works at the moment, just postulating that it should be possible to write software to be able to play/trim it while in the RAM, don't see any reason why not.
Steve
 
Steve Phillipps said:
I get the feeling there must be a RAM buffer in there somewhere as that's how a pre-roll feature works, and that has been promised and been confirmed that it doesn't require extra hardware as far as I'm aware?
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Interesting thought, thanks for finding the post too.
A pre-roll buffer doesn't need to be as big (and fast) as a burst-mode buffer, it just takes a few seconds of already compressed images at normal framerates. It's also thinkable that RED plans to do this via pre-caching on SSD.

Just saying. ;)
 
Maik Müller Menendez said:
It's also thinkable that RED plans to do this via pre-caching on SSD.

Just saying. ;)
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That's an intriguing idea. That system would have to be writing constantly. In a camera in desperate need of power management that is not really a welcome thought... At least not just now.

Is there an engineer on board who can describe the differences between RAM and SSD memory in layman's terms?
 
+1 ... I get what you're saying Tim, definitely would like to hear RED weigh in here, I'm guessing, like scott mentioned, that the R3D codec is substantially more material and it may be processed in a different way, not enabling a burst mode, although I'd love to have it.
 
Jaakko Rinne said:
One would assume that the amount of data (or number of pixels) captured per second is what counts. 4096*2160*30 is exactly the same as 5120*2160*24 (265420800). Why wouldn't it be reasonable to compare 4K 30fps to 5K WS 24fps?
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Because per frame is the lowest common denominator, whereas per second (made up of 24 or 30 frames) may or may not be the processing limitation. RED can't claim that the Scarlet can't read the 8.85megs/frame of 4.5k WS (because it does so for each 4k 1.9:1 frame already) whereas 5k WS is ~10.9megs/frame (which may not actually be possible at a frame rate higher than 12fps, like the 5k limit.) In other words, the processing required to offload 10.9megs may take 1/12th a second, whereas we know the camera can read 8.85megs at a speed of at least 1/30th a second (aka 4k 30fps)... I feel like I'm not articulating myself properly.

In any case (whether 4.5k WS, 5k WS, ANA modes, or Burst modes), I would really appreciate RED telling us why it isn't possible (if, in fact, it isn't possible). I hate the BS "it just can't/get an epic" because there's no obvious hardware limitation that's preventing it...
 
Hehehe. Yeah, Scarlet-Users always want a bit more, and the problem is, they actually believe that RED can magically make things happen (well, because they did it many times).

So, burst-mode... Do i really need t? Nope, i can live without it. Is it possible? I don't know, but i tend to think this concept has been killed. Only RED knows the answer. Do i think it "should" be there? No, RED didn't promote Scarlet with this feature, i've bought my camera with the known specs/limitations and i'm happy with it. I don't care what a FS700 or C500 will be able to do, i've invested in RED for many more reasons than just numbers.

In the end, i guess we all would be happy if RED comes up with a burst-mode, i'm sure it would be better than what the competition offers. ;)
 
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