Build 15 update...

[Dj Joofa]

The last thing I think about, as a DP/director who has shot my fair share of 35mm and digital, is...."I'll put a light in the corner of the frame so that the audience will think I'm artistic and that I haven't underexposed this shot".
If they are thinking about that at anytime then I have failed in my opinion. They should be in the world of the story.

Trust me, it is a great trick. If you have not used it, I encourage you to use it. The reasoning is like this. Most audience will think that an underexposed image was acquired by a novice DP if all pixel values in an image are quite low -- they associate that with low production values; that you can't light up your set properly. But if you just provide that small light thats reasonably bright (say a light bulb away from the main action in the scene), then, audience psychologically thinks that since the range of image pixel intensities in the image vary from almost dark to bright (coming out from the light bulb), hence, the production values were good, the image is just artistic; and the main action was *supposed* to happen in dark/underexposed setting.

Its the range thats important for psychological reasons, even if the light bulb was very tiny portion of the image histogram, but was there just to lure audience.

 

[Warren Kommers]

Trust me, it is a great trick. If you have not used it, I encourage you to use it. The reasoning is like this. Most audience will think that an underexposed image was acquired by a novice DP if all pixel values in an image are quite low -- they associate that with low production values; that you can't light up your set properly. But if you just provide that small light thats reasonably bright (say a light bulb away from the main action in the scene), then, audience psychologically thinks that since the range of image pixel intensities in the image vary from almost dark to bright (coming out from the light bulb), hence, the production values were good, the image is just artistic; and the main action was *supposed* to happen in dark/underexposed setting.

Its the range thats important for psychological reasons, even if the light bulb was very tiny portion of the image histogram, but was there just to lure audience.

Dude......I know what you are describing. Trust me. You don't notice the noise as much when there is a bright thing in the frame because your eye is drawn to it. Contrast help sells the impression of less noise. Know it well and many other's before you. It's a good thing to know about how we draw our conclusions conscious/subconscious of an image.

What's happening? My head hurts. Sorry if we've derailed the thread. Time to go drink and let it out on Rock Band.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Dude......I know what you are describing. Trust me.

...

What's happening? My head hurts. Sorry if we've derailed the thread. Time to go drink and let it out on Rock Band.

Good to know that we are in agreement. Thanks for your input. I really appreciate that. Have a nice time at the Rock Band.

 

[Brook Willard]

D3 ISO 6400

Guess somebody got his D3...

 

[Darren Orange]

This may be a mute question but has anyone done any testing with shooting Day for Night with RED? I would think that you could get some pretty nice outcomes and "MAYBE" save alot of money on lighting a night scene. I know there are alot of details that go into that but saying generally, like lights, the sky, etc, if the sky is clear or mostly clear it should be ALMOST easy to key out. Thoughts?

 

[Poi Boy]

I've never liked the look of day for night but it would be interesting to see some tests.
-A

 

[Thor Wixom]

The PL mount diagonal 30/31mm design constraint is significant. You can't cheat by making bigger pixels and bigger sensors and still be compatible with all the great lenses out there.

Deanan,

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question... is it possible to "train" four pixel sensors to act like one, effectively making a bigger virtual pixel? The theoretical result would be 2k, but at a higher ASA.

In answer to my own question, there may be a physical limit because of the bayer pattern, and how it has to cross-matrix it's color information, rendering it impossible to make a virtual pixel out of four pixel sensors.

Just a thought. :matrix:

-Thor

 

[Antoine Baumann]

Personally I'm keeping my expectations tempered...
1 Stop DR improvement (most likely in the shadows).
Corresponding 2/3 stop better shadow noise.
Purple Sun fix

If build 15 can to this I'll be very happy, if it can do better I'll be ecstatic.
Although just having simultaneous outputs will be HUGE!

I am also quite tempered...
IMHO the sensor is a bit noisy, but it deals way better with under exposed image than over exposed.
- I really would like to see 1 stop improvement but in the highlights.
- Purple sun fix
- All simultaneous output
- One to one pixel zooming
- Import LUT
- Way to display the raw image in the outputs, not only a rec709
- Possibility to change the function of the user button on the camera
- 100fps @ 2K
- ......

Ah and REDCINE out of beta.

ciao,
antoine

 

[Poi Boy]

4K @ 60fps
Aloha
-A

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

BTW, isn't that what my reputation is coming to on this forum that what is the point I am harping about. So sad. So sad. So sad. So sad. So sad.

Joofa, Would like to encourage you. Your posts are easy and a pleasure to read as they reveal rational thinking. It's just that not all people are used to articulate systematically how different things are related to each other. Obviously, it frustrating when one tries to nail down the key issue but the main point is missed. But, everybody learns and gains from such comments. So, keep going.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Joofa, Would like to encourage you. Your posts are easy and a pleasure to read as they reveal rational thinking. It's just that not all people are used to articulate systematically how different things are related to each other. Obviously, it frustrating when one tries to nail down the key issue but the main point is missed. But, everybody learns and gains from such comments. So, keep going.

Thank you very much Lauri. It is so encouraging to hear such kind words from a prospective Red owner. Thanks for your generosity.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

After reading all the tread in the morning I could conclude

(of course it's my point of view)

that the most valuable opinions were from

Jim, Joofa, Graeme and Deanan.

So for Nikon's D3 way to go for low light is :bye2: with RED.

For sure RED Team is going to find its own way to "capture"

more low light with RED in the future firmware updates.

But maybe one great achievement to that is already done with Build 15.

 

[mezmo]

Trust me, it is a great trick. If you have not used it, I encourage you to use it. The reasoning is like this. Most audience will think that an underexposed image was acquired by a novice DP if all pixel values in an image are quite low -- they associate that with low production values; that you can't light up your set properly. But if you just provide that small light thats reasonably bright (say a light bulb away from the main action in the scene), then, audience psychologically thinks that since the range of image pixel intensities in the image vary from almost dark to bright (coming out from the light bulb), hence, the production values were good, the image is just artistic; and the main action was *supposed* to happen in dark/underexposed setting.

Its the range thats important for psychological reasons, even if the light bulb was very tiny portion of the image histogram, but was there just to lure audience.

Hi Joofa,
It's also a great way to hide the grain in Super 16 cinematography.
I would add even putting a putting a slash or pool of hot light behind
considerably underexposed actors works a treat.
Mezmo

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Some interesting things I've noticed playing with the D3 files...
•Noise seems to live more in the Red channel Vs. Blue in the D2x.
•There is some on chip pre RAW NR (Possibly chroma) going on but it preserves detail very well.
•The noise "Character" is more grain-like than any previous DSLR I've seen
•Shadow detial and shadow noise is more controlled than any previous DSLR

Graeme, if you like I can shoot some test frames for you to play with.
Let me know.

Evin - would love a Stouffer shot if you can! (at various ISOs)

Graeme

 

[Michael Stanmore]

This is a very important point and one I should have remembered to make.

Ah, so that's why SI's 4K camera is a 65mm camera rather than a 35mm camera.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Ah, so that's why SI's 4K camera is a 65mm camera rather than a 35mm camera.

SI?

Maybe you mean Phantom65?

 

[Andrew M.]

It has already given a fright to big brothers like panavision and sony, what will happen to them after BUILD 15.

EMERGENCY SERVICES ON STANDBY, PLEASE......:sarcasm:

Actually they are in more trouble that it looks like.

What is natural evolution for RED, that started from zero, just couple of years ago, it is complete rethinking for “them”. They are coming from Video, SD, HD and TV broadcast word.
RED in turn is more building on the best of both, RAW DSLR camera and broadcast technology, with the RED post taking the best of both DI and digital photography.

In digital photography you shot RAW and jpg as a proxy, and then in the post you have choice of many good programs, mostly created specifically for digital photography and some for HQ prints or news media.

RED is shooting RAW and QT as proxy, then we have not so many good programs for post as in digital photography but plenty enough, coming mostly from DI post side.

They have legacy systems that they have to maintain and keep developing for theirs customers, that are completely unsuitable for the new technology.
They have seen it coming, just by analogy to the sudden changes in digital photography, yet they were caught with pants down.

The corporate culture there will not be able to absorb these changes and the only way to compete is through acquisition or letting a new blood to the corporate structure and creating new divisions that will compete with the rest of the company.
Later one though as history shows, frequently fails

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

multiple output is great!!!!!...do I hear 1080P output/preview???

 

[laguun]

Actually they are in more trouble that it looks like.

What is natural evolution for RED, that started from zero, just couple of years ago, it is complete rethinking for “them”. They are coming from Video, SD, HD and TV broadcast word.
RED in turn is more building on the best of both, RAW DSLR camera and broadcast technology, with the RED post taking the best of both DI and digital photography.

In digital photography you shot RAW and jpg as a proxy, and then in the post you have choice of many good programs, mostly created specifically for digital photography and some for HQ prints or news media.

RED is shooting RAW and QT as proxy, then we have not so many good programs for post as in digital photography but plenty enough, coming mostly from DI post side.

They have legacy systems that they have to maintain and keep developing for theirs customers, that are completely unsuitable for the new technology.
They have seen it coming, just by analogy to the sudden changes in digital photography, yet they were caught with pants down.

The corporate culture there will not be able to absorb these changes and the only way to compete is through acquisition or letting a new blood to the corporate structure and creating new divisions that will compete with the rest of the company.
Later one though as history shows, frequently fails

sony or panasonic are not really hurt by red. the 10.000s of hvx or z1 cams aren´t affected and houndreds of hdcams or p2 as well. also, the raw workflow which has many advantages will not be accepted for most of the work of those who buy most $$.$$$-$$$.$$$ cameras. Television. Right now, Ophrah, the superbowl or the distant ENG team can´t use red as replacement, as it is much to slow. simply different markets, and television prefers workflow over quality almost any time.

The small companies, as arri, aaton and panavision, who manufacture and rent 35mm cameras are the ones who are mainly affected.

and the game is just beginning.
In few years from here, most Nikons and Canon cameras in the $$$$ range will be able to record video. Casios new exilim already does 1080p uncompressed via HDMI, and they record up to 1200 fps.

red speeded that development up by years, but will finally have to competete with the japanese behemoths, once the markets really overlap.

I hope that arri now finally wakes up. Since almost one decade i am asking them every single trade show to built something like red, and once more a german local champion gave the market leadership away without a fight. With the new ceo it seems the direction will be adjusted in the camera division. I however doubt that they get the pricing right.

And one thing is for sure - with more than 3.000 red cameras in the market, the rental market will be totally over saturated by late 2008.

p.s. edited for spelling

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Agree Laguun.

Thanks.

You gave us here some very good points.