Bug...

[Jannard]

Do you have any idea on the scale of this latest bug and it's ramifications for completion of EPIC? I know things like this can be hard to guess but if we are looking at another 3-4 months before the tattoo program starts again and effectively an at years end (6 months) it gives a lot of us a good idea as to where we can be sinking some capital in before being ready to pay up for EPIC. It's only 2 weeks away from our financial years end here in Australia and investing in some more gear for tax purposes now is better than holding off another year.

Our bug is doomed. Just a matter of time. We could kill it tomorrow. Or it may take some time. I have no idea. Neither does engineering. But it will happen.

Jim

 

[Peter Matthes]

Everyone has faith in you, Jim.

Just don't burn the candle on both ends ... and the middle.

The most important thing is to be around for your family and new wife. :thumbsup:

 

[Peter Moretti]

...

Sorry dude, but if I were RED, I would be insulted by your suggestion. ...

IMHO, having your name mentioned along side Nikon is never an insult.

 

[Snow R. Shai]

Good News

Good News

Hi,
Good to hear you're well.
Good things come to those who wait...
This will turn out for the better...

 

[Peter Moretti]

The only difference between us and the rest of the industry is that we are talking along the way. If we kept silent about the process and our targets, we would be just like the others. I now can understand why they do it like they do. But I still prefer to keep an open dialog.

Jim

FWIU, the just released $6,800 Canon XF305 was delayed for over a year. But the public doesn't know the camera came out more than a year late b/c Canon never let the public know this camera was even in development.

And it's no Epic or Scarlet. It's a 1/3" three chip solid state replacement for one of their current 1/3" three chip HDV tape pro cameras.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

The only difference between us and the rest of the industry is that we are talking along the way. If we kept silent about the process and our targets, we would be just like the others. I now can understand why they do it like they do. But I still prefer to keep an open dialog.

Jim

It is all about the promises. There are always people who can't deal with the 'we don't make any hard promises' concept. When I'm pressed by our customers about when our software will be done, I'm always happy to give them a best estimate - I just never, ever, promise them a fixed deadline. Just doesn't work that way in R&D. I haven't seen you do that either, ones you couldn't keep. We've found, over the years, that most customers really dig the openness. Which suits us very well, being closed is no fun at all. It still saddens me that some don't get it and gripe about it. Somehow, once you draw a product on paper, people assume it exists. Drawing on paper is the easy bit.

May we know more of the bug? I hope it is not a Heisenbug.

And very good to see you back!

 

[Dj Joofa]

FWIU, the just released $6,800 Canon XF305 was delayed for over a year. But the public doesn't know the camera came out a year late b/c Canon never let the public know this camera was even in development.

Products do get delayed so it is no surprise and I feel sorry for Red. But what is striking to me is that Red is no longer a new company (4-5 years; companies get formed, deliver, and get sold in this time frame), so there is no excuse in saying that we (Red) are not sure what we are doing. And, Red has been repeatedly informed by many that their time frames are too aggressive. However, contrary to the assertions by Red, Red is not quite receptive to technical critique of its products, timelines, and suggestions.

And, Peter, claiming that Canon was delayed for a year is no excuse either. Canon has delivered a number of products. Trust me, this 4-5 years span of Red is a huge amount of time for a technology startup company; with only a few delivered major products that includes the Red One camera.

It's about time Red took its development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control more seriously.

Joofa

 

[Jannard]

Products do get delayed so it is no surprise and I feel sorry for Red. But what is striking to me is that Red is no longer a new company (4-5 years; companies get formed, deliver, and get sold in this time frame), so there is no excuse in saying that we (Red) are not sure what we are doing. And, Red has been repeatedly informed by many that their time frames are too aggressive. However, contrary to the assertions by Red, Red is not quite receptive to technical critique of its products, timelines, and suggestions.

And, Peter, claiming that Canon was delayed for a year is no excuse either. Canon has delivered a number of products. Trust me, this 4-5 years span of Red is a huge amount of time for a technology startup company; with only a few delivered major products that includes the Red One camera.

It's about time Red took its development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control more seriously.

Joofa

JRED is about 4 years old. That is extremely young when you consider the industry. We have put out one (1) product... the RED ONE. What we are attempting to do, 5K at 120fps in a box the size of a 1Ds plus some thickness, is next to impossible. At least compared to what the rest of the industry is trying to do. That we would have issues... not what we had hoped but certainly not a surprise. The real surprise is that we are even trying to do it. If we all were standing around waiting for the "others" to do it... how long do you think we would be waiting?

Just because it is impossible doesn't mean it can't be done. Just give us a second...

Jim

 

[Jimmy Odom]

To be completely honest, I'm pleased that RED is up front regarding this bug as this setback has allowed me to consult with my wife and we'll be placing a down payment on our first home with our Scarlet fund, which is a great thing, because it'll be our first home together.

Now we have great living arangements currently, which allowed us to create the proposal of us allocating some of our savings and invest it into RED gear. But now it just seems wise, considering the circumstances, to use the funds for something here and now, and maybe just plan our shoots, projects, and jobs with rentals in mind instead of purchasing.

Hopefully one day we'll be able to own a Scarlet or better yet a Epic for that matter, but sadly even if it's released this year I won't be able to purchase.

Seriously it's like the planets allined on the day Jim posted this thread, which I wasn't able to check that day. So I put an offer in on this place, which was INSANE for the guy to accept, and I told my wife if he accepts this we'll just use the camera $$$ and buy it, because this is a once in a lifetime deal. She agreed, he said yes, and the rest is history, or at least it almost is.

Jim I said all that to say that I appreciate your openness, because it truly impacted my life, and in a good way. Its rare for a comnpany to own up to certain situations that may effect the bottom line, but you KEEP customers that way, not run them away, as others do, no matter what they think. I may not own a RED camera on release date, but I'll do all I can to support the team and rent from those in the Chi who buy RED.

 

[Peter Moretti]

...

And, Peter, claiming that Canon was delayed for a year is no excuse either. Canon has delivered a number of products. Trust me, this 4-5 years span of Red is a huge amount of time for a technology startup company; with only a few delivered major products that includes the Red One camera.

It's about time Red took its development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control more seriously.

Joofa

Canon is also a huge conglomerate that makes its own sensors, lenses... copiers. The comparison is incomparable. What I was pointing out is that Canon could not even upgrade a 1/3" HDV camera on time. And when it finally came out, it's been greeted with "It's too expensive" and "The chips are too small."

As for the time frame, the Red One is still, years later, hands down the best digital cinema camera for the money (quite probably period). And it is sold at a ridiculously low price. The imaging board of the F35/23 (they share the same board) costs more than an entire Red One.

Red does not say "We don't know what we are doing so be patient with us." What they have said is "We got very lucky in the beginning (when we didn't know what we were doing)." There is a difference.

They not only claim that they know what they are doing now, they also claim to know where the industry is headed better than many entrenched players. And it looks like they are right.

Finally, the head of the company had to take a month off for health reasons, and engineers and designers are constantly posting here and answer all ?'s from insightful to inane. So for you to say that Red does not take development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control seriously is way out of line, IMHO.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Clear timelines are for those who stick to the well trodden trails.

I always hate giving timelines because I know how long it *should* take -- but that's rarely how long it will take. It's always tempting to give someone the perfect scenario where you make no mistakes and everything just falls together. Telling them that it takes twice as long as it could because you're going to screw up repeatedly feels like you're casting yourself as inept. In reality it's often just acknowledging the truth. Not much of any value has been created without a lot of wasted time on dead ends.

It's usually Plan D that's successful. It's hard to admit from the start that plans A-C probably will fail. They always look so promising in the beginning.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

RED is about 4 years old. That is extremely young when you consider the industry. We have put out one (1) product... the RED ONE. What we are attempting to do, 5K at 120fps in a box the size of a 1Ds plus some thickness, is next to impossible. At least compared to what the rest of the industry is trying to do. That we would have issues... not what we had hoped but certainly not a surprise. The real surprise is that we are even trying to do it. If we all were standing around waiting for the "others" to do it... how long do you think we would be waiting?

Jim

So true.

BTW, Jim, I love how you are back to interacting with everybody on here after the break. It's what has kept my interest in RED for the past couple o' years +. Though we all can hardly wait til the destination, it's also about the journey and it's been quite fun to follow the progress you guys have been making.

Keep it up... :thumbsup:

 

[Victor Merritt]

If it's worth doing at all it's worth doing right. Take your time and do what you need to do.
And thanks for the Heads-Up on the delay.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

Clear timelines are for those who stick to the well trodden trails.

(...)

It's usually Plan D that's successful. It's hard to admit from the start that plans A-C probably will fail. They always look so promising in the beginning.

Yea. You've just got to train that internal editor - No, that just doesn't cut it - do it again, maybe from scratch. If it doesn't work for you, how can it work for your customer? Software, hardware, really - it is no different from editing film. But sometimes it hurts. B can be soooo pretty.

 

[Dj Joofa]

So for you to say that Red does not take development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control seriously is way out of line, IMHO.

In my humble opinion, I don't think that I am going over the top. I have spent sometime in digital imaging so my comment is coming from some experience. I have been following Red's development for a long time and this is what I think: Red is a great idea executed at the right time. However, as I said that 4-5 years is pretty darn good amount of time for a technology startup, which was totally un-encumbered by delivery and customer pressure as it was a nascent company.

Moreover, I looked at Red's specs (major ones) and thought could my colleagues and I would have done it in 5 years and the answer was probably yes. So I don't think that I am going over the top and way out of line.

Joofa

 

[Peter Moretti]

Then I suggest you send Jim a PM and offer you and your colleagues to make Scarlet for him.

 

[Matt Fleming]

It seems to be overlooked often:

Please list any of the companies (camera-centric or other) who will give you, dollar-for-dollar, a trade-in value for an older product for the newer, upgrade.

Just curious...

 

[Peter Matthes]

... claiming that Canon was delayed for a year is no excuse either. Canon has delivered a number of products. Trust me, this 4-5 years span of Red is a huge amount of time for a technology startup company; with only a few delivered major products that includes the Red One camera.

It's about time Red took its development, understanding of digital imaging, and quality control more seriously.

Joofa

Please correct me if I am wrong, but ...

Canon is about to celebrate its 80th birthday, and they still haven't put a professionally focusable lens on a "Professional" camcorder yet. I owned an XL-1 and I still have nightmares. That is the best example of company complacency I have seen in a long while.

Sony has had a video unit since the mid 70's, and they won't have a sub $100,000 PL mount camera until the middle of next year.

Arriflex is 90+ years old, and they are ... just now ... getting around to reactively releasing a non-modular, 3.5K, 60fps max digital camera.
And we all know what that is going to cost.


“If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere.”

 

[Jannard]

In my humble opinion, I don't think that I am going over the top. I have spent sometime in digital imaging so my comment is coming from some experience. I have been following Red's development for a long time and this is what I think: Red is a great idea executed at the right time. However, as I said that 4-5 years is pretty darn good amount of time for a technology startup, which was totally un-encumbered by delivery and customer pressure as it was a nascent company.

Moreover, I looked at Red's specs (major ones) and thought could my colleagues and I would have done it in 5 years and the answer was probably yes. So I don't think that I am going over the top and way out of line.

Joofa

Joofa... talk is cheap. You and your colleagues? Really? So you could do what no other camera company has ever done? Really? Then why don't you actually do it and save us the effort? Really? I'll shut down RED and buy yours...

Jim

 

[Danny Murray]

Im not one to fall into criticism! i try to avoid it as much as i can! But i will have to say that in part when it comes to business and market! Joofa is correct! As far as the business sense of companies! But also will have to ultimately give Props to RED and Jannard! i see where he is coming from! its not about being the biggest company in the industry or making the most money!! quoting peter Jackson from his message, its about doing it for the right reasons!! Red is still a relatively New company and its going on the right path and making sure that they address all the issues before they release their new product! in comparison with the other companies which i should not be doing, they are light years ahead of the curve. Other companies which have been around for decades longer than RED are just now starting to realize that they should have reconfigured their products and make them more accessible to the public Price wise! but onto my point, 4 years is nothing compared to 50 or 60 years that companies like panasonic or Arri have been around! So as far as criticism its always good but only when all factors have been considered!