Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Michael Hastings]

Based on images shown of Epic-X it seems that, if needed as a temporary solution, it is possible to make a mechanical adapter between the existing Birger mount and Epic-X without any electric connection to avoid warranty issue. Birger mount can be powered from any external 12V battery and it's not a major problem to view the lens data on some external display.

Of course, it's likely Erik will produce a proper adapter to the Birger mount and Jarred has also said there will be a RED EF-adapter. The remaining question is, when these are available. If it takes time, a temporary mechanical adapter would enable one to move from R1 to Epic-X.

I think you are correct Lauri about a mechanical adapter. I just wish RED would take the wishes of 200 to 300 Birger mount users - which represents 4 to 6 million dollars worth of RED purchases - seriously enough to work with Birger to provide both the physical and electronic specs in order to make the transition as smooth as possible.

 

[Martin Weiss]

I just wish RED would […] work with Birger […] in order to make the transition as smooth as possible.

Maybe it should be the other way round?

No one doubts Erics engineering capabilities.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Maybe it should be the other way round?

No one doubts Erics engineering capabilities.

The information has to come from RED...

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

The information has to come from RED...

The key issue is indeed the specs of Epic-X. We'll see when further information is given.

Nevertheless, if needed, I'll go on a get a mechanical adapter for the existing Birger mount as a temporary solution. Likely, will be able to get few adapters manufactured at once with a reasonable cost if some other R1 owners are interested following the same path.

 

[Jarred Land]

I just wish RED would […] work with Birger […] in order to make the transition as smooth as possible.

Michael, I love you man but your constant barrage isn't going to change things... We have tried working with Birger before..... We honestly gave it a sincere effort.

You have alot of false comments in your thread about the history of the RED nikon mount, reasons why the element technica mount has died ( or has it? ) ... etc. etc.. lots of assumptions that really doesn't do much except irritate.

 

[Erik Widding]

Impero / Birger EF-Mount: Available from stock

Impero / Birger EF-Mount: Available from stock

I promised I would post when Imperos were available from stock. Now that we have made a best effort to follow through with the reservation holders, we find we have about ten left in stock, ready for shipment. These may be the last of the Imperos available from Birger, as this was a one time buy from ViewFactor.

Order form is at: http://www.birger.com/pdf/cinema_order_form.pdf

Anybody still playing chicken with their reservation ought to give us a call...

 

[Bill Goehring]

These may be the last of the Imperos available from Birger, as this was a one time buy from ViewFactor.

Anybody still playing chicken with their reservation ought to give us a call...

How does this affect the Birger Nikon Mount reservations, which included a remote FF fulfilled by the Impero?

 

[Erik Widding]

How does this affect the Birger Nikon Mount reservations, which included a remote FF fulfilled by the Impero?

It has no effect on the Nikon reservations.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Michael, I love you man but your constant barrage isn't going to change things... We have tried working with Birger before..... We honestly gave it a sincere effort.

You have alot of false comments in your thread about the history of the RED nikon mount, reasons why the element technica mount has died ( or has it? ) ... etc. etc.. lots of assumptions that really doesn't do much except irritate.

Jarred:

First, I really don't want to be antagonistic - I wish I could preface every post with how much I appreciate what you have done with the REDONE and even more so with the Epic and the way you have set it up so we can move to Epic in a very financially sound manner. But I also think Birger has done some excellent things as well. I understand it has been a rocky relationship. And in reality it is probably more advantageous for me to stay on the good side of RED, but I don't want to choose sides. I'm pushing for a better relationship between the two because I think it is important for a significant subset of the RED community. I'll expand on my motivations more in a bit but first let me cover this:

You have alot of false comments in your thread about the history of the RED nikon mount, reasons why the element technica mount has died ( or has it? ) ... etc. etc.. lots of assumptions that really doesn't do much except irritate.

I have tried to be accurate in my statements about the Nikon mount - if I have said anything false please correct me. I don't know what the original version was supposed to be, although I had a very low serial number R1 in my hands in the fall of 2007 so I have some idea of what was likely. My comments here have been basically about the shipped version of the RED Nikon mount and were this:

Shortly after the second version of the R1 PL mount (the current one with the adjuster) was shipped EriK posted pictures in this thread of a low cost dumb Nikon mount (actual prototype not renders) that he had made which didn't require removing the backfocus adjuster portion of the PL mount and offered to sell it in the interim while he was reconfiguring the EF smart mount with an adjuster. The next day he withdrew the offer stating that he was concentrating on interfacing the smart mount. A week or two later Doug Underdahl posted pictures of his (virtually identical) Nikon mount. At NAB 2007 I had lunch and walked the show with Doug for a couple hours. He told me that he didn't think he was talking out of school to tell me that he was making the RED Nikon mount since he had been standing in the booth with you (Jarred) - in front of dozens of people - when you introduced him to a customer as "the guy that makes our Nikon mount".

We talked about a number of things, some not for public consumption. Another thing that I haven't said publicly is that I have a better machine shop than either Doug or Birger - with swiss precision and regular lathes, Bridgeport mill and a $50K Haas VF-1 machining center. And the frontplate for my underwater housings is made from precision Mic6 aluminum which is perfect for these mounts and the porthole cutout is slightly larger so making those mounts would have been a great use of the scrap. No additional setup - just a few extra easy to program circular cuts, and drill the holes - all with the tools already being used on the frontplates. So except for this $19.95 Nikon K3 Female Nikon Bayonet F-Mount - for Custom Applications from B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/366996-USA/Nikon_2717_K3_Female_Nikon_Bayonet.html and $2 of hardcoating my cost would have been some scrap aluminum and an extra 10 minutes of run time on the CNC. (and the same could have been done for the Alesniak style EF dumb mount) Why didn't I? - because I never liked it when people just copied what I was doing and undercut me - so I didn't feel right about it.

As far as Element's mount, I don't believe I ever said that it had died. I simply pointed out that it was announced here over a year ago and that even then other posters were predicting (accurately as it turned out) that it might be a year or more until introduction. And I suggested that the guy consider how long it might be (And Jim even admitted in a recent post that RED hasn't been very good about keeping schedules) when deciding whether to get a birger now or postpone until who knows when.

As far as my motivation - in reality I personally don't need Birger as much anymore. My housing rental volume allowed me to purchase an expensive 10mm PL Zeiss for my underwater work which was my most critical need. But I still like to use my Canon lenses for U/W and other stuff and more importantly I have several customers that can't justify the expensive PL lenses and associated gearing or motors required. Several, like Jon Schellenger and Frazier Nivens, are close friends that I CONVINCED to get REDONEs in part because the ability to use Canon lenses made them cost competitive to other solutions AND who were only interested given the trade-in deal for Epic. So I will have egg on my face with them if the Epic transition isn't smooth.

Secondly, I became sort of a quasi-moderator/spokesman/calming influence/etc. during the months of development, since I had been interested from the beginning and then let Birger use my camera when they made the mount changes so had a little more communication with Erik. I was encouraged to take that role by a number of REDUSERs both on the thread and by private communication, so please understand that I'm not trying to be as much of a pest as it may seem - I am trying to voice the concerns that I think my customers and others on this thread have. The ultimate goal is not to step on any toes but just to get the best level of communication/cooperation and smooth transition as possible - whatever that might be.

 

[Jarred Land]

I understand your perspective Michael.. caught in the middle, and I know your intentions are good. Its just getting a little tiring hearing you push some sort of relationship that most likely will never happen over and over and over again.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Send me an Epic, I'll be too busy to post. Idle hands ..... :biggrin:

Seriously, the next few months are bound to be exciting ... can't wait.

 

[Jarred Land]

heh heh heh.. yeah maybe we will send an Epic with a Special build that self-destructs as soon as you its senses you trying to be a mediator

 

[Michael Hastings]

heh heh heh.. yeah maybe we will send an Epic with a Special build that self-destructs as soon as you its senses you trying to be a mediator

Fair enough, I'll consider myself warned.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

my 2 cents worth is I wouldn't have my RED camera if I couldn't have gotten the Birger mount and I was able to use all of my Canon lenses that I already owned. I hope that the EPIC allows for using my Canon lenses.

Now Michael, come down and let's go shoot the sharks.

Best to all,
Frazier

 

[Karl Gustav H.]

On a broader theme, would Red be open to making (or at least releasing specs/hiving off to a third party[ET]) the hypothesised 'dumb' adapter plate, converting the new DSMC mount to say the existing Red One mount bolt pattern? Keep totally away form anything electrical, just the mounting bolts.

It should hopefully allow early adopters (for whom RED won't have a suitable mount available at launch) to use their existing alternative mounts. I'm thinking beyond Birger (although the Canon EF FFD is a good place to start - pretty much everything else is deeper and constitutes at least the second largest, if the not the largest, installed alternative mount base) to the various Nikon mounts (Red/Underhall, Underhall modified, the Optitek) and others especially the ET PV mount for anamorphic fetishists.

Sorry for being another calming influence (and RED/Birger combo renter).

 

[Joel Kaye]

my 2 cents worth is I wouldn't have my RED camera if I couldn't have gotten the Birger mount and I was able to use all of my Canon lenses that I already owned. I hope that the EPIC allows for using my Canon lenses.

Yeah, I'm hopeful some accommodation can be made for all of us caught in the middle. It's a lot of cool technology (not to mention a lot of cool money) to not be able to use on EPIC.

I was there back in 2007. Here's to an EPIC 2010! :beer:

 

[Bo Randers]

anyone got a working system

anyone got a working system

Has anyone have a system that works?.

I am now on my second mount and a VF controller. Everthing is updated and i am running build 20 on the RED.

THis is my problems.

All my lenses is drifting in focus. They will not hit the marks.

Smooth focus pull only on my L primes. 24mm1,4. 50mm1,2.

Max range on bluetooth is 6 meters. After that i lose sync.

It can be hard to get it sync. And the in camera info is only sometimes working.

Rec does not work from the controller.

The VF eat batterys...1-2 hours of shooting.

Emails to Birger gets no reply.

So after over a year of waiting and extra cost for customs and shipping i am not a happy man. Dammm....I wish i bought a used arri focus pull.

Bo Randers

 

[Erik Widding]

Has anyone have a system that works?.

I am now on my second mount and a VF controller. Everthing is updated and i am running build 20 on the RED.

THis is my problems.

All my lenses is drifting in focus. They will not hit the marks.

Smooth focus pull only on my L primes. 24mm1,4. 50mm1,2.

Max range on bluetooth is 6 meters. After that i lose sync.

It can be hard to get it sync. And the in camera info is only sometimes working.

Rec does not work from the controller.

The VF eat batterys...1-2 hours of shooting.

Emails to Birger gets no reply.

So after over a year of waiting and extra cost for customs and shipping i am not a happy man. Dammm....I wish i bought a used arri focus pull.

Bo Randers

Bo, your Impero is broken. Please send it back for repair.

We appear to have filed away your single email from 2 October on the topic of the troubles you were having with your Impero, without responding first. In this day and age with such large volumes of spam, it would be a good idea to send a second email or pick up the phone, if you feel you are being neglected. By the way, the subject line of that email "RE: Credit Memo from Birger Engineering" and the first five lines of text "Dear Amy and erik Thanks." I can see how we overlooked the rest of the email. At the same time, I am sorry that we were not more careful.

We helped you out by sending a new lens mount out in advance of returning your old one for its free upgrade, because you plead hardship. We honored this request, going above and beyond our published warranty and upgrade policy.

The big lesson I have learned, from our experiences with this product, is those that ask for special treatment, if given it, generally come back and complain about how badly they have been treated. Thanks.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

is those that ask for special treatment ...

Erik, I'm sure I'm not the only customer of yours you have helped in a difficult situation and who is grateful for your sincere effort. Feel sorry that it has such a bumpy road for you with the Red mount. You have, in fact, developed something that is not trivial. But if one is not familiar with the technical details, expectations get easily sky high.

About batteries, it seems rechargable NiMH-batteries last longer than ordinary batteries. And there are also very big differences among ordinary batteries. In my experience Varta batteries are the best ones.

 

[M Hsu]

I also am grateful for the birger mount. As lauri said, it has been a bumpy road, but I am definitely grateful that Erik had a vision for it and has stuck through this whole process and continues to support it. I think some thanks are in order to Jarred, Erik, Curt and everyone else who takes our venting and doesn't show up on our doorstep holding a crowbar. I live in fear that one day Jim is going to post:

"I quit, sort it out yourselves, you ungrateful prats."

so, thanks guys for taking our crap and making things for us that let's us be creative. Without you, there is no us.