Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Michael Hastings]

Could you drop some pics about all Birger EF mount sides here?

I already mounted it and have to ship out in a couple of hours but here is the assembly picture. The third picture shows the intermediate portion with the connectors.

BTW the cable you see is what will be changed, the cable exit will have another 4 pin lemo bulkhead instead of the cable.

I saw someone post that we are looking at months more of delays. They just have to drill out and tap that wire hole and if the new circuit board doesn't take too long it might not be as long as it seems.

 

[Joe Vinson]

I saw someone post that we are looking at months more of delays. They just have to drill out and tap that wire hole and if the new circuit board doesn't take too long it might not be as long as it seems.

I just think that some of us are learning from experience. But if you really don't think it will be that long, can I have yours?

 

[Michael Hastings]

I just think that some of us are learning from experience.

I understand, I'm just suggesting it isn't as big as it seems.

But if you really don't think it will be that long, can I have yours?

HaHa - good point. I'm shipping it off to a secret location - some of you know my address!!!

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

I helped Mike install the Birger Canon EOS mount on his RED ONE #206. I had previously seen a prototype mount with the USB connector and a spacer made on a "parts printer". This prototype was not anodized, except for the cylindrical part that held the EOS mount.

The production mount is a big improvement. Fully anodized, the electronics look much better, good connectors, and a simple but effective method for adjusting the Flange Focal Distance.

I set up Mike's camera using my back-up Autocollimator, a portable Richter unit with LED light source. It was difficult to see the reflected image through the EOS zoom lenses. I was able to see enough to verify that we were reaching infinity focus before hitting the end stop on the lens.

I'm wondering if anyone knows if true infinity focus on an EOS lens (I'm talking primes here, I know the zooms are wacky), is at the hard stop, or if the focus past infinity by design.

Although I still think that high end production work will be done with PL mount lenses, it seems to me that this mount will open up some very interesting possibilities. I would still advise users to stick with the pro series prime lenses and avoid the temptation of the compact zooms. The AF still zooms are designed totally differently than a cine zoom.

Without a doubt, Canon has some superb prime lenses in the L Series for the EOS mount. Some of these are the best performing still camera lenses in their focal lengths. I'm looking forward to mounting a Birger mount on my lens test projector and getting a look at how they perform.

If anyone needs to get a Birger mount installed and focus calibrated on their RED ONE, PM me.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I saw someone post that we are looking at months more of delays. They just have to drill out and tap that wire hole and if the new circuit board doesn't take too long it might not be as long as it seems.

Well when you add in that the knob isn't done and consider that 2 months ago we saw a working version that only needed a knob it's hard to imagine a WORKING version will be shipping within a month from now.

At least the aperture adjustment works currently, right?

Have you tested breathing and vignetting on your EF-S lens?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Although I still think that high end production work will be done with PL mount lenses, it seems to me that this mount will open up some very interesting possibilities. I would still advise users to stick with the pro series prime lenses and avoid the temptation of the compact zooms. The AF still zooms are designed totally differently than a cine zoom.

Is there a reason you couldn't use a zoom as a variable prime? You might need different focus markings for different focal lengths but it should work, right?

 

[Erik Widding]

I'm wondering if anyone knows if true infinity focus on an EOS lens (I'm talking primes here, I know the zooms are wacky), is at the hard stop, or if the focus past infinity by design.

Lenses focus past infinity by design. We believe this allows for the less expensive lenses and/or camera bodies to not need to hold the same tolerances as the more expensive ones, and yet still be fully interchangeable.

Also, Cinematechnic and Aqua did the collimation/setup the hard way - because I did not give them the collimation software yet. It only gets easier from here...

it's hard to imagine a WORKING version will be shipping within a month from now.

It is literally drilling out a hole, and tapping it; and putting two 4 pin LEMO connectors on a cable - for each mount that we need to ship. Turns out, we did not need to makes any board changes. Machine sho is already setting up for the rework, with a promised delivery date of tuesday, and more LEMO connectors will be arriving the same day.

Also, Brian said yesterday that they were already working on my camera, and usually repairs take one day...

 

[Chris Kenny]

It is literally drilling out a hole, and tapping it; and putting two 4 pin LEMO connectors on a cable - for each mount that we need to ship. Turns out, we did not need to makes any board changes. Machine sho is already setting up for the rework, with a promised delivery date of tuesday, and more LEMO connectors will be arriving the same day.

Thanks for the update, Erik. Any word on on when the focus knobs will be done? We're starting to get a bit concerned about how long it's going to take to have a usable system here, and I don't think we're alone....

 

[Joel Kaye]

It is literally drilling out a hole, and tapping it; and putting two 4 pin LEMO connectors on a cable - for each mount that we need to ship. Turns out, we did not need to makes any board changes.
Also, Brian said yesterday that they were already working on my camera, and usually repairs take one day...

Great, but I said "working"... as in the "knob is done and the the thing can actually adjust aperture and function as a follow focus unit". Are you saying the Monday after this (10 days) we'll see 50 fully functional units ship?

 

[Jorge Díaz-Amador]

EOS Mount

EOS Mount

Also, Cinematechnic and Aqua did the collimation/setup the hard way - because I did not give them the collimation software yet. It only gets easier from here...

Hey Eric!

Actually Mike told me about the software but could not explain it. I just did it the way I'm used to. I took your suggestion of +0.20 mm from the deepest setting and it was a good starting point. I ended up going about 0.1 mm deeper. For a truly accurate setting I would need to check it on my bench collimator (Möeller-Wedel), and with a wide, fast prime lens.

I like lenses that focus past infinity. The only problem is, I can't know if the focus scale infinity mark is accurate.

I'd certainly like to learn about your adjustment software and how that works. Please feel free to PM me when you have time.

 

[M Hsu]

aqua can you confirm that the mount functions in dumb mode, ie with no power? Anyone who wants to make a dumb mount I'll buy one for $500. We will all need a backup mount.

 

[Justin McAleece]

i'm really getting pissed

i'm really getting pissed

I'm glad we're close (like we have been for 6 months) but this is almost unconscionably pathetic how many times I have heard '2 more weeks' I feel like sending whoever said that last a bill for $3200 for how many times I've had to rent the RED 18-50. If anyone would have told me that I would've had to wait like 4 months I would've just bought the damn thing. but no. I'm out over $3000 because people can't estimate their time properly. I'm not talking about the RED body change - THAT WAS LAST YEAR - If I told a client it would be done in a week 6 months ago and gave them nothing and made them incur costs on their end they would sue me and I would be in court this moment. that's how it would go, plain and simple. I have bit my tongue. I have never once called. I have only emailed my information and never included any commentary or questions. i have put up with the idea of emailing my CC info over unsecure methods just to make it easier on you guys. I have checked my credit card daily to see if any charges have come up, I have checked this thread more than daily so I could tell the 20 people that constantly ask me when it will be done WHEN IT WILL BE DONE. but as I sit here knowing that every new lens rental probably will not be my last I get more and more angry.

Seriously, It's great the thing works and that everyone at NAB saw it and that it's hopefully democratizing filmmaking and all that but when it comes down to it Erik stands to make a lot of money and unless he's working 80+ hours a week (like I do in my business) and has subbed out internally every job he possibly can to other qualified employees (like I have in my business) then he is making me a liar on purpose. and if there's one thing I NEVER do it's lie, I might have a scathing tongue and I might get myself in over my head but I NEVER LIE and because of the BIRGER mount I have become a habitual liar and someone who is over $3000 more in debt then I wanted to be. It's almost July. Is this a joke, does everyone in the world already have one of these mounts and they're all playing a prank on me? I don't think anyone or anything is against me, but it is seriously weak that we are over 6 months past when this was supposed to "ship next week" like 75 times ago. I've sat back long enough but this last straw is that the first shipment that every one got all excited about was just for beta testers. that is false advertising and patent misleading and I feel abused. if I were doing that to my advertisers I would be crucified.

When it comes I will be ecstatic but right now I'm pissed. I hear you're a great guy Erik and doing the impossible, but this has just been too much.

 

[Michael Hastings]

aqua can you confirm that the mount functions in dumb mode, ie with no power? Anyone who wants to make a dumb mount I'll buy one for $500. We will all need a backup mount.

Absolutely, for any manual lens that has iris i.e. Nikon, Contax/Yashica, Leica R and M42 (pentax screw also) using a simple adapter. So you don't need another mount as a dumb backup, you just need a couple of manual lenses with a whatever it is to canon ef adapter available on ebay all the time for about $20. I use Contax yashica 50 and 85mm f1.4 as low light (they are my "superspeeds") and backup lenses with the adapter and they work great. These were basically the same optical design as the earlier generation cine lenses. I'm actually selling a Zeiss contax/yashica (contax was zeiss's slr) 50mm f1.4 with adapter for $295 since I have two (I bought a camera that came with a 50 after I already had one). This is the same lens that they sell as a Zeiss ZF lens with Nikon mount ($517 at b&H) but since it is a nikon version it focuses the "wrong" way.

Canon lenses don't have a manual iris so when you put them on the birger mount they are wide open. Unless you put them on a canon camera and stop them down, they aren't very handy - that's the whole point of the birger smart mount - it makes ef lenses work. The next big benefit will be when the knobs are ready - then we move into the same long throw focus accuracy as cine lenses.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I feel like sending whoever said that last a bill for $3200 for how many times I've had to rent the RED 18-50. If anyone would have told me that I would've had to wait like 4 months I would've just bought the damn thing. but no. I'm out over $3000 because people can't estimate their time properly. I'm not talking about the RED body change - THAT WAS LAST YEAR

I have checked this thread more than daily so I could tell the 20 people that constantly ask me when it will be done WHEN IT WILL BE DONE.

When it comes I will be ecstatic but right now I'm pissed. I hear you're a great guy Erik and doing the impossible, but this has just been too much.

You should have ordered a Nikon dumb mount for $500 from the RED store, then you could have gotten it 8 months after the camera shipped - for a physical adapter.

It will be done when it's done. And I say that not as someone that has a mount - since I need knobs to really make it work in my underwater housing - it just takes time and it has been complicated by RED design surprises at several points. I got to about the same point with RED back in March as you are now with birger, but I then realized it is just the nature of the beast - it's a revolutionary product from a small company (birger) to go on a revolutionary product from a new, small company (RED), that is still basically a beta camera and I think we all just have to deal with it. We have all pretty much knowingly chosen to jump on board this in-development system. In some ways it's annoying and some ways it's exhilarating but in the end I think I am benefitting by being part of it at $20K rather than out of the game if they had just normally developed it to a finished product and it came out a year from now at $40K instead. I am not sure I could have justified it then. I look at it like a preconstruction price on a house. I got the deal because I was willing to take the risk and aggravation. (And by the way, I fully expect the price of the birger mount to increase once current orders are filled as I have seen all the extra stuff on the current version vs. the original version from seven months ago.)

 

[Joe Vinson]

It is literally drilling out a hole, and tapping it; and putting two 4 pin LEMO connectors on a cable - for each mount that we need to ship. Turns out, we did not need to makes any board changes. Machine sho is already setting up for the rework, with a promised delivery date of tuesday, and more LEMO connectors will be arriving the same day.

Glad to hear the board didn't need changing, but you'll have to forgive us for being skeptical. We've been burned so many times before! I hope Amy knows what kinda fella she's marrying... :clown2:

So I notice you didn't address the question about selling us a plain ol' machined mount, sans electronics. Whaddya say? I'd like to start using my camera please.

 

[Justin McAleece]

You should have ordered a Nikon dumb mount for $500 from the RED store, then you could have gotten it 8 months after the camera shipped - for a physical adapter that could be made in a few hours by any good machinist (several people did it).

You've been a huge help Aqua in getting this thing into our hands, I truly trust that you've taken weeks off the time that it would've taken to get to completion. Without you it might be shipping in November.

But, you and I know both know that one company's incompetence: in this particular case - RED's is no excuse whatsoever for another company to do the same thing in this case BIRGER. In the professional world we know that the 'You Started it' excuse is not very useful and that's all that is. A dumb Nikon mount would not prove very useful since all my Canon L lenses have no aperture rings.

Once again though Aqua we all thank you for trying your best to be a liaison.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I believe in Erik and all what he is doing with that mount.

It takes time like with all other sort of development.

When ever he ships then I will ask P+S Technik to get it even more advanced with an adapter for IMS.

I do not see any technical obstacles for that.

This summer is going to be very exciting with all that different type of lenses that we can get on RED...

 

[Justin McAleece]

to reiterate

to reiterate

I'm disappointed but not mad at how long it's taken. Things take time? No problem.

I'm very mad but not disappointed that it was all but promised months ago and I have personally been screwed by that.

If it will take a month or 5 years just tell me and I will plan accordingly.

RED has done a million things right and some things wrong, the dumb Nikon mount is one of them. That is not an excuse for me to tell my client and it should have nothing to do with BIRGER. When Erik finds out about RED changes just give us a timeline. Don't estimate and then subtract 75% and then tell us that.

 

[Michael Hastings]

If it will take a month or 5 years just tell me and I will plan accordingly.

It's not like doing a brake job where the labor time is known because they have done thousands.

Nobody ever made a RED camera and nobody ever made a Canon EF smart mount for it - so nobody knows how long it will take. It's true whether you are building birger mounts, red cameras, or B1 bombers, or apollo spacecraft or whatever.

How long does it take to make your movie 2 weeks, 6 months 2 years? If you are doing cutting edge effects and animation do you play safe and say 5 years (and probably never get funded) or a month (unrealistic) or your best guess 18 months and everybody with a knowledge of how that world works understands that realistically it could 24 or 30 months?

 

[R Fogg]

I guess that somtimes these optimistic development/production/shipping schedules seem like an awful new trend in marketing - lets call it "carrottware" - If some one would have told me that birger was going to take 6 months to iron out problems on a product that was supposedly days away from shipping I would have gone with another solution immediately. I am suspicious that many companies set optimistic schedules in order to keep people focused on their product rather than seeking other solutions.