Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Michael Hastings]

Would love to avoid a new rollercoaster tour with my future relationship

Are you talking with RED..or your significant other?

... or do they operate in parallel?:001_tongue:

Will there be a Canon (or: Contax for that matter) mount

:biggrin: Martin - gotta love the C/Y Z's. I'm working on a C/Y to Epic mount using a toilet paper tube as the interface (it's electrically inert!) . Further announcements after submission to RED, but I can give you a paypal account if you want to place a deposit. :biggrin:

 

[Karl Gustav H.]

I think a viable, albeit less desirable case route moving forward would be a smart Birger mount (the existing product) with a totally dumb/inert interface with the Epic/Scarlet.

OK, it would mean the loss of the i/data, but considering that was always a 'bonus' feature I think I for one could live with that, especially as the lighter weigh of Epic makes adding a PDA of some kind (great use of an old, jailbroken ipod touch) as a readout device possible.

It also keeps the VFS knob functionality. Hopefully power could be via the same LEMO setup as today, or failing that, an external supply. Again, the lighter weigh of the DSMC line make that more viable, end-user wise.

Sorry for the ramblings.

 

[KenjiHIBI-photographerJPN]

Hello.
I am still waiting Birger NIKON mount....
Erik When it comes out?

 

[Alexander Alexandrov]

how does one properly read the lens distance data? mine always shows numbers in 800s-900s?

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

It would be dumb of us to ignore the need of alternative mounts, the popularity of this thread is enough to warrant facilitating that.. the birger mount for example has been a life saver for many people.. its a great product that has a long history of unfortunate politics.

Jarred, what you say here sounds very promising, thanks.

In my opinion to have the i-data on the LCD/EVF is not critical. For, it should be rather trivial to have a small external display showing the same data. In addition, the Birger mount can be powered externally. So, in the end of the day the only critical issue is the mechanical adapter. Everything else --the electric connections-- can be solved otherwise, and if so, I believe Jarred will have nothing against such a solution.

 

[David Nardini]

no worries Michael the only thing we can do is try and make sure you guys have solutions for what you need to do. It would be dumb of us to ignore the need of alternative mounts, the popularity of this thread is enough to warrant facilitating that.. the birger mount for example has been a life saver for many people.. its a great product that has a long history of unfortunate politics.

Yep ... Red should NOT ignore other solution makers !

One can only hope that this time round the Epic / Scarlet mount 'details' are shared in advance to keep delays to a minimum.
RedOne was a big learning curve for all (not least Red !) ... fingers crossed Birger will not be months down the line before having something that is approved and ships in quantity (and works !).

I must say I'm surprised Birger is working on a PL 2nd stage for their current base ... would be good to stabilise what's available now (Canon) especially smooth focus pulls ... what about the Nikon mount ? and how about the Epic / Scarlet base ?

Maybe I'll be proved wrong and they have these in their backpocket and NDAs prohibit broadcasting goodies :drool5:

 

[ericyoung]

how does one properly read the lens distance data? mine always shows numbers in 800s-900s?

The lens data only reads correctly after you long press the middle control button on the Birger mount. Then it should stay correct as long as you only use Bluetooth or the Impero wired mode to control focus - manually focussing with the lens ring will throw it out again.

 

[Michael Hastings]

In my opinion to have the i-data on the LCD/EVF is not critical. For, it should be rather trivial to have a small external display showing the same data.

Lauri, I think you're forgetting that it isn't where the data goes or gets displayed that caused the biggest problem (I realize there have been some software glitches but those are more easily dealt with) - it was the cable getting pinched so even with a side display you still have to something to get the signal from the i-pins. I'm just hoping that RED can do something like for example having spring loaded pins or contacts on the epic brain that mate with spring loaded pins or contacts on the lens mount so that there are no external wires going into the brain as there is on R1.

 

[Karl Gustav H.]

Michael an external display can negate any need to use the pins. You could send the data via the com ports or Bt, just like the mac app.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Michael an external display can negate any need to use the pins. You could send the data via the com ports or Bt, just like the mac app.

Okay I see what you guys are saying but you are only thinking of the birger mount. Maybe you missed all the drama last year but the problem with the Birger mount and other mounts is that when you take the pl mount off the RED1 you expose the i/data cable - and even with the RED nikon mount where you only remove the front portion you expose that cable and have to make sure it doesn't get pinched. Even before Erik even mentioned that it was possible to have lens data, just removing the PL meant you had to be VERY careful with the RED i-data cable. That's the whole problem - dealing with the cable - regardless of whether you use it or not. So I'm trying to eliminate the cable by replacing it on the Epic with contacts that aren't as vulnerable.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Michael, yes I remember well all the discussion last year. Furthermore, I had first a Nikon mount from RED and the problem appeared already when installing this mount. But, speaking of EPIC-X and the Birger mount, almost all phones have nowadays a BT. In principle it should not be difficult to write a piece of software showing the data on the phone or on whatever external display. As Karl Gustav says other options exists as well.

For me the main things is to avoid the delay we had the last time but instead get everything running smoothly as early as possible.

 

[Jarred Land]

Actually michael the biggest problem is no longer the i-pin getting pinched... looking back that was small compared to the amount of calls we get now when the mount just isnt working, be it a new build comes along and the Birger stops working, or some bluetooth problems, origio... etc. etc... people for some reason call us about it. Those call support numbers add up, and unfortunately the records we receive are not timely so there is alot of extra leg work that goes into tracking things down

 

[Antoine Fabi]

Jarred,

The RED camera main interest for me is its flexibility.
Will there be a Canon FD mount ?
Or will your policy allows manufacturers to make them very soon after EPIC release ?
Maybe it would be a good idea to tell the mount specs right now (if it's not top secret)
so the guys begin to work and make the mounts available when the EPIC is released, not one or two years after

Thanks
Antoine

 

[Joel Kaye]

people for some reason call us about it.

That's annoying and I don't really understand why people would do that. Perhaps Erik (or Kurt in the case of Origo) could put his support number on the products to alleviate that. Also, owners that rent their unit out should do it. I don't understand why any owner following this thread would call RED. (and if you're out there reading this please stop calling RED

All I know is I'd like to get EPIC and get my Birger stuff working on it. (and I know I'll shoot with Nikon and PL and other mounts too 'cause I think EPIC will be my system of choice for many years)

Given the progress of other attempts at the Canon mount, the complexity of the wireless FF system and the lens database Birger has created up I'm a little skeptical someone else is going to come along and get all that working right very quickly. I hope it happens, but there are a lot of variables there. Right now the system is just a few tweaks away from being "right".

Having EPIC/Scarlet be able read i/data from almost any modern lens will turn it into THE VFX CAMERA as more 3D apps read that metadata. Plus it's nice for script supervisors on any shoot.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Actually michael the biggest problem is no longer the i-pin getting pinched... looking back that was small compared to the amount of calls we get now when the mount just isnt working, be it a new build comes along and the Birger stops working, or some bluetooth problems, origio... etc. etc... people for some reason call us about it. Those call support numbers add up, and unfortunately the records we receive are not timely so there is alot of extra leg work that goes into tracking things down

Hadn't really thought much about that - but I understand - I have customers calling me trying to figure out what's wrong with their Sony or Panasonic camera. And I just sell the waterproof box that goes around it. But I still have to be nice and spend some time on the phone with them and if I can't help send them to to the manufacturer.

 

[Bill Goehring]

As we approach the two-year anniversary of my reservation for the Birger Nikon mount, which still shows no signs of certain fulfillment, let alone trouble-free operation, my question isn't whether Birger mounts will be compatible with the Epic and Scarlet lines but whether Birger mounts of all stripes will be SUPPLANTED by them.

And why not? There are only a couple of reasons I can think of: to promote sales of the forthcoming RED electronic lens line, although this doesn't seem to adhere to the RED philosophy of interoperable third-party accessories, and, after all, they are promising at least Canon and Nikon mounts already and might as well incorporate electronic operability into the mounts. The other problem might be the possible reluctance by Canon and Nikon to license protocol information to RED for this purpose or for RED to pay for it, even though Erik has already demonstrated the feasibility of reverse engineering these protocols, if imperfectly so out of the gate.

It is a functionality that many RED owners are clearly interested in, as evidenced by the continued success of the Birger sales proposition, even in light of ongoing problems with Birger hardware and software. Further, it would eliminate the communication problems RED continues to have with Birger and PR problems with their customers, due to compatibility problems with firmware updates, etc..

I've been wondering for some time now why such a clever guy like Erik has had so much trouble staying on top of communications with Birger customers and RED--especially RED--and continually return to the same conclusion: that it is by design, that these communications gaffs are not out of carelessness or lack of time but are a shrewd business strategy to get RED to buy out his more than two years of research and development and incorporate it into the next generation of RED cameras to satisfy RED's customers and get the monkey off of his back, thus giving him plenty of time to focus on NASA or other projects and his new family.

I'm not sure that irritating a potential buyout company is the way to success, but then I'm not a very shrewd businessman myself.

Paranoid? Foolish? Maybe. What do you think?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Paranoid? Foolish? Maybe. What do you think?

One of those. Haha. I don't think Erik has purposefully tried to aggravate RED. I think he's an engineer acting just like most engineers I've known. Politics and communication isn't their first and best aptitude. Solving technical puzzles is.

 

[Karl Gustav H.]

One of those. Haha. I don't think Erik has purposefully tried to aggravate RED. I think he's an engineer acting just like most engineers I've known. Politics and communication isn't their first and best aptitude. Solving technical puzzles is.

It makes me think of a joke once recounted by an honest to God rocket scientist.

An obviously student-looking guy pushed a fully loaded shopping cart into the checkout lane at the Stop & Shop supermarket that used to be in the middle of Storrow Drive in Cambridge, MA. Pointing at the "Express only - 10 items or less" the cashier asked him:

"Watsa mattah, you're frahm Hahvad and you can't count, or you're frahm M.I.T. and you can't read?"

A bit OT, but par for the thread.

 

[David Nardini]

We do understand the problem.

Any customer having an issue needs to test the lens with the Impero, and then the Mac app. In the mac app send a lens report, and tell us about the behavior with the Impero and with the Mac, in the comments field. Do this with all of your lenses. We will then follow up with you on next steps.

Hmmm ... my 17-55/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 have been reported (months back) and have been 'patiently' waiting. Am I really the only one wih jumpy focus ?!

The mount itself has been bullet proof ... the Imperio ? hmmm ... never had the guts to use it anger and every time I try to be 'positive' and see if I can discover a work-around ... it always lets me down.

Never had lens data ... ever. No big deal as ALL I'D REALLY like is consistent / smooth pull focus ... could not care less about all the other features ! Even if the Imperiod digests batteries in no time. Re-mapping the focus to a full revolution of the Imperio control is great ... but frankly pants if its not smooth :crying:

Oh well, live and learn ... just wish somebody would stick to making adapters that work as it says on the tin !
Assuming Epic does launch with more options than just PL ... there will be a Birger + Imperio for sale.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Hmmm ... my 17-55/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 have been reported (months back) and have been 'patiently' waiting. Am I really the only one wih jumpy focus ?!

This is a repeat from another thread - but it's the same issue so:

I can verify the 17-55 F/2.8 EF-S lens focused fine using the original ViewFactor Firmware on the Impero. It is jumpy using Birger firmware v1.8. The 70-200 IS behaves the same. It's OK under the old firmware and jumpy with the latest version. They'll get it figured out at some point.

The Canon 85mm 1.8 can do a slow smooth rack but is jumpy on faster racks on both versions of the firmware.